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Illegal div II tractor

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ihc450

09-08-2002 19:52:35




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I would like to know why it is allowed that Gary Kavanagh from Laurel,Ne is allowed (without protest) to run a stroked and bored motor in Div II. this motor was built by Jack automotive in Hooper ,Ne (I know its true) But Gary had won national titles in 8500 last winter and 7500 the winter before. He is pulling a 450 diesel and I thought that that kind of engine work was against the rules in Div II. ..... ..... If it is not then I AM going to do the same to stay competitive!!!!!

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puller

09-10-2002 06:47:09




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 Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to ihc450, 09-08-2002 19:52:35  
I guess I understand what your talking about but gary was outpulled at least twice at columbia this spring by a stock 720 JD & bored 70 JD



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Greg H.

09-09-2002 10:11:20




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 Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to ihc450, 09-08-2002 19:52:35  
Just be thankful that you have a speed limit rule. If you can run close to the required speed limit, you don't need more power. If your tractor runs well, get good tires, and work on your balace, and you'll be competitive. where I pull there are no speed limit rules. Nothing is enforced on RPM's cubic inch, or even head and block modifications. Stock tractors pull right beside tractors with 3 times the Horses. Some boys pull at 2 mph, some at 8mph. I'm one of the stock guys at 2-3mph, and I'm not complaining. Why? because I try to drive well, I work out a good balace, and if I stay out of the holes I am competitive. As an added bonus I spend very little money having a whole bunch of fun. My suggestion is instead of complaining about what you aint got, make the best out of what you have to work with, and when he blows his tractor up, due to taking the engine too fare have a good laugh at his expence. later on Greg H.

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LL

09-14-2002 13:34:35




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 Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to Greg H., 09-09-2002 10:11:20  
I call your answer a COPOUT!



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SteveV

09-09-2002 18:32:52




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 Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to Greg H., 09-09-2002 10:11:20  
Well Greg, you'll like this story. I went to a pull a few weeks ago where the speed limit was 4 mph. I was the only Deere in my class, it was loaded with Farmalls Ollies & a Case or 2. First gear on my 1950 "A" has a top end of 1.5 mph. They had watered & rolled the track some but as the evening wore on the air got real heavy with moisture. Suddenly the big studs were powering out as they went down the track. I got 1st place with the second place guy 17 feet behind me. The ol' girl hardly broke a sweat going down the track. I don't win or even get a top 3 every time I pull but it shows that it can happen...and those moments are special.

Steve

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Greg H

09-10-2002 06:01:12




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 Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to SteveV, 09-09-2002 18:32:52  
Steve,
That's exactly what I'm talking about. At our County fair this year in the 10,000 pound natural we were operating under a floating finish line rule, just pull as fare as you can, no pull offs. The sled was putting it on us early. I watched the hot boys rare up and spin out at the 200 foot mark. I put 1000 pound on the nose, put is in first gear, and ran the engine at 2,000 RPM's, and let the govenor do the rest. I missed three sets of holes, and when I stopped I had pulled 336, besting the second place puller by 110 feet. It was my first Trophy. I've gotten money for placing several times, but never a first. It was a good pull, and I look forward to going to this track in October. It can be done, it just takes alot of luck, and some tinkering with the weights. It's not as easy as going on momentum, and it won't be done as consistantly, but it can be done. I also like the fact that I can take it out and bale hay, and pull in insalage with my tractor as well, because it's not all cobled up. Later, Greg H.

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Paul

09-09-2002 06:08:16




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 Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to ihc450, 09-08-2002 19:52:35  
I can find no where in the rules that it says you can not overbore or stroke the motors for div 2. Div.2 is a Rpm. tire and speed limit class. 1000 horsepower should not get you any farther down the track



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onetoughm

09-09-2002 07:24:15




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 Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to Paul, 09-09-2002 06:08:16  
Hey ihc450, Paul is right. You would have to read something really weird into the rules in order to say that his motor is illegal. What specific rule would a bigger (stoked and bored) motor be illegal? Rule number 7 is the only one that addresses the engines and it only talks about the use of external parts. It says absolutely nothing about internal modifications being illegal. What is the specific rule violation?

RS

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puller

09-10-2002 08:30:13




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 Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to onetoughm, 09-09-2002 07:24:15  
i have never found any thing in rules that cant bore and stroke the motor..rule says stock block,heads,manifold and carb....the biggest rule is that M,s cant have the 450 lp head on is what i read into the rules....there are alot of J d that are running bigger pistons and strokes..i guess why just pick on the 450 diesel.. just because he wins then everyone thinks he is illegal???and i ve seen him get beat lot of times too....theres more then motor in div 2...its balance..getting tires to hook up,and driving.....lets just all go to the pulls to have FUN...if you win,,great,,if not dont complain...maybe you should congrats someone once.....TRY it...makes you feel better than BITCHING at him..... ..

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jim

09-10-2002 09:45:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to puller, 09-10-2002 08:30:13  
I guess what has brought alot of this on was HE ,HIMSELF..... ... He has been beating everyone with ease for so long and now a couple of guys have stepped up and been putting a hurt on his 856. This has caused him to threatin to fight and do alot of yelling and basically make an a$$ out of himself in front of the fans and fairboard folks which doesnt look good for the club. And hopefully fans dont think that all pullers are like the sore loser that he is. But his choices have brought both of his tractors under fire and because of it maybe some folks should know what he has. This has got him in a pretty good sweat so I would guess that the allegations are pretty close to being right on. I guess come winter pulling if someone else doesnt do it first I will put up protest money for the tear down. (I guess if you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones) Jim

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onetoughm

09-10-2002 11:01:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to jim, 09-10-2002 09:45:24  
Gary, ihc450, Jim,(whatever it is?) I still don't really know what rule that you are going to protest him under and "put up protest money". I am still waiting for a clear explanation of that. I didn't even know that the NATPA rules had provisions for someone to "put up protest money". Maybe that is indication that stroker motors are legal? I am assuming that you pull with the NNPAI club. I don't really know where in the heck that they came up with their protest rules. They use the same rules as NATPA and neither organization says that you cannot stroke and bore a motor. Also, if you believe that this class is for M&W kits etc. Are the M&W cranks legal for teh M's along with the 4.25 pisons to go with them? What it boils down to is where is the SPECIFIC rule he is in violation of?

RS

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puller

09-10-2002 14:53:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to onetoughm, 09-10-2002 11:01:19  
i dont think natpa has a protest rule...and do we need it????? i like to pull for fun..yes the 450 wins..but if he needs to spend 10,000. to build a motor that wins a plauge on the wall,more power to him...if we start to protest every tractor thats all u would get done..i bet 75% of div 2 tractors have more then stock horsepower....ever scence tractor pulling started every one trying to build more power....if we have cry babies that need to protest tractors maybe they should stay HOME..... ...even the norteast tractor pullers it just getting to be one big cry baby club...every one bitching bout someones tractor...hell they even have a tear down rule but dont even know what to check for...its bout time to stop winneing and start having fun again....they even change the rules in mid season...now thats not right.....just because certain guys cant beat you so change the rules...GET REAL GUYS.....

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onetoughm

09-10-2002 18:21:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to puller, 09-10-2002 14:53:49  
Puller, I agree 100% with you. I just get tired of people whining and moaning in that organization. All that they try to do I make up rules to stop the people that are winning from winning. Deck won't pull with them again, all that they try to do is find a way to keep Backer and Foose from stompin' on the D-21's in the 3000 rpm class and it goes on. I just want to put a stop to this Divison 2 deal. I have heard grumblings from people about this for a long time. No one has ever given me a good explanation about why they are illegal.

RS

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Jon Aller

09-08-2002 21:14:57




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 Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to ihc450, 09-08-2002 19:52:35  
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the NATPA.

But your original post says it all.

You said he is allowed to compete without protest. I am confused by that statement. Are you saying that a formal protest was lodged and ignored, or no one has bothered to lodge a formal protest??



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tim

09-08-2002 20:30:47




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 Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to ihc450, 09-08-2002 19:52:35  
where are any responses from natpa members??? they read this and post, why don't they answer these two questions, OR are they afraid of bear?



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NATPA member

09-09-2002 11:32:28




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 Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to tim, 09-08-2002 20:30:47  
What does this have to do with Mr. Bear? I as well as my husband and father are members of NATPA. I pull Div II with a Farmall 300, and would like to refer you to the newest rules for that Division posted on NATPA's website. (see link below). It does not mention anything about internal modifications to a motor. If this gentleman wants to BUY his end of the year plaque, let him. I like to earn my winnings. Just another thought, you can spend alot of money for horsepower, but you have to be able to put it on the ground.

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Gary

09-09-2002 07:57:42




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 Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to tim, 09-08-2002 20:30:47  
I was under the impression that M&W was ALL the bigger that you could go .Not bore it till it may break then stroke it just before it hits the sides. I'm all for making things run better and putting on a good show but there always has to be some one who will go outside the lines to beat you. Yes I know that is what competition is all about ..... .but then what are rules for? I would like for some "higher ups" to look into this and "if" it is a violation stop it soon before 6 more tractors get the same treatment here in N. E Nebraska. 2 of them are 450s Garys is the only diesel 450 "right now"

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44puller

09-09-2002 15:38:48




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 Re: Re: Re: illegal div II tractor in reply to Gary, 09-09-2002 07:57:42  
At the top of the page states (natpa rules), for near stock tractors, piston kits, etc. Depends on your idea of what near stock is but the scary word is ETC. The rules comm. needs to define what can and cannot be done. In most cases the mph rule equalizes most everyone out but what will change in the future---the low gear rule is already gone to satisfy a few.



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