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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Possible rule changes

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ChadS

12-09-2003 22:14:16




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Our club is thinking about changing the light wieght class.. It is now a 3250 to 4500lbs,, Mind you,, we pull percentage,, They would like to raise the limit, to 4000-4500 class. Kinda takes all of the work we have done to lighten these tractors,, safely, and within the rules, and throws it out the window,, Lots of pullers add weight to their tractors to pull in classes,, we like to run light,, Also,, some of the board members who are pushing for this ,, don't have a light tractor to pull in the class, so why would they try to change classes that all the pullers in the light classes, don't want? I do speak for all of the pullers in our light classes in our club,, after speaking to over 10 pullers that pull in the light class, no one wants the weight limit to change. I belive that we, the pullers, of our little club should schedule a meeting with the rule board for an open discussion on this subject.. Just my opinions,, Chads

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BUD BARENIE

12-10-2003 17:38:38




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 Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-09-2003 22:14:16  
I'M READY WHERE'S THE MEETING, I GUESS THERR'S MULTIPLE PROBLEM'S, ARE THEY COMING FROM THE EAST OR THE NORTH !!!!
LET'S SCHEDULE !!!!
TIRED OF WAITING TIL;L; MARCH !!!!! !!!!! !



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greenweenie

12-10-2003 17:09:30




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 Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-09-2003 22:14:16  
Chad-
I hope your club learns a lesson from the NATPA. They have allowed Oliver 88's, 560's, etc. in the divison V classes. As far as I'm concerned, these tractors don't have any business in any class below 4500 lbs. It seems as though when Jim Hutson built his WK40, and had it in division IV, 4500, the powers being in NATPA, at the time, could not stand his tractor spanking their Olivers, so they made a rule to keep him from entering the lower classes. I don't understand how they can allow these big tractors to walk on the smaller tractors in these lighter weight classes. The 3500 lb class should be for WC's, WD's, JD B's, Oliver 66's and 77's, and like size tractors. I still think they are oblivious to the amount of pullers they lost when they gave the WC Allis' D17 rpm. Soon it SHOULD become apparent to them by the number of paid memberships. You can look at the NATPA pulls and see the hook numbers are high, but I wonder what these numbers would be come if they restricted these tractors to two hooks? Don't get me wrong, I love to hook, but don't try to fool the pullers with smoke and mirrors. I know there are a lot of board members that monitor this forum, I don't even want your name, but I would like your input on this subject. If I'm entirely wrong, I'd be happy to appologize, but you're going to have to set me straigt first.

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ChadS

12-10-2003 17:51:10




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 Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to greenweenie, 12-10-2003 17:09:30  
You are 100% on the money. No apology needed here. This is what took my H from div 4&5, back to div 3, if I pulled NATPA. I can remember when 77's were not allowed below 4000. Back in 98,, We pulled at Harford, KY. No oliver 77, 88, IH M, And so on was in the light classes,, followed the rules, for a change. Next pull was Wilmington OH,, Here is where it went off track,,, A sudden rule change imposed by Epperson, allowed 77's in 3500, and made new class, 3750. Every Oliver 77, 88, IH M, and 44 massey, was in the class!! We tried to run with them,, so did lots of others, Rittinger, Birch, Baker, could not beat them, tore all of us up,, They stated, that the rule changes were temporary, and would not carry on to the next pull. At the time,, I was in 2nd place in the points standings, Attended all of the NATPA pulls, placed, got beat etc,, but was in 2nd,, We got out to Columbia, MO for the National championship and regional qualifier. I looked at the points list and I was not even there. There was 3 pulls, that were not on the NATPA listed schedule,, that other pullers knew about, but no body told anyone else. So, I got a copy of the results list from those 3 pulls, and whoa and behold, there was all of the olivers, etc winning these classes, and leading the points,, Could not beat Rittenger though,, he had an excetptional year,, in 98,, no way they could catch him. Ever since then,, I have disliked the NATPA, and what the rule committe at the time had done. As time went on,, more and more Light Olivers,, IH 560-460,M,s what ever has been in classes below 4000. Most of what happened, at the time, was Birch, Epperson, Rhoorda, and a few choice others who were on the board, had made these rules and new classes for themselves, and their buddies. There are some AC, Ol,66, IH H, and so on that can flat get with it, But no way they can consitstanly winning with these types of tractors in the classes, they were never intended to be in. So that is why you see old division 4-5 tractors in div3, and old div 3 back in div 2. As far as I am concerned, It was a great thing when it first started, then all of the buddy buddy people got their way from their personal friends on the board. You know,, every one seems to dislike people like Bear,Harshfield, Cox, Bergeman, etc,, I think these people are some of the smartest people I have seen in pulling in 10 years. They seen what was going on, and went with the flow, they know how much they could bend the rules, and did, Me personally, My H can run,, it can run with a big engined WC-WD,, etc, but not against a ol 88 with over 500ci, and 180hp in an open class. That is why I am building the 460H. Going with the flow,, why? because the rules state I can,, Unfortunate as that sounds, but if you can't beat them,, build a tractor that just might do it. and join em, The only way people will understand what board members who are not in classes they are messing with is to take a long hard look at the NATPA,, It is politics as usual. Just my opinion,, ChadS

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A.P.

12-11-2003 06:56:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-10-2003 17:51:10  
Things will only get worse. The big inch tractors are pushing the "little" tractors smaller or out. They in turn are being pushed smaller themselves by the real monsters like the GVI and MF95's. The rules should be rolled back along with the rpm's allowed the 460/560. if they want to run RPM's based on a 660, run a 660.



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dctom

12-10-2003 10:21:32




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 Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-09-2003 22:14:16  
CHADS; THEY DONT RELEISE HOW MANY SMALL TRACTORS ARE OUT THERE THAT WOULD PULL WITH US ( VAC CASE B-A FARMALL B-C ALLIS SMALL MASSYS AND EVEN FORDS) JUST TO SATISIFY A FEW HEAVY ONES EGOS TOM



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Wild Horses

12-10-2003 08:11:59




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 Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-09-2003 22:14:16  
I don't understand why you'd want to run that light if you have to run against 4500 lb tractors. I can see running a little under weight depending on the track, but I'd want the traction. But I do agree with you that the pullers should have a majority of the say. Something like that should be by a club wide vote.



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ChadS

12-10-2003 08:40:23




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 Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to Wild Horses, 12-10-2003 08:11:59  
Percentage pulling. Sometimes,, the light tractors on a tight track can pull right with those 4500lb ones,, percentage for the light tractors goes up. ChadS



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Wild Horses

12-10-2003 10:28:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-10-2003 08:40:23  
You easterners and you strange ways. What's wrong with class by weight? More pulls per tractor. When I go to a pull, I want hooks in at least 2 classes that I can be competitive in or its not worth it.



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WTW

12-10-2003 13:17:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to Wild Horses, 12-10-2003 10:28:47  
I feel the same way, I think allot of promoters fail to see that though. If there isn't a least two classes that I know that I am going to have a fair chance in I will not go, I will just find a pull somewhere else that does. I guess the way they (promoters) look at it is, if they are getting enough hooks to satisfy themselves that's all that matters to them. I would rather see more / different tractors in different classes and classifications than watch the same tractor pull multiple times. That too can become a complaining situation as people watching want to see the variety of tractors they see setting in the background and wonder when they are going to be next and get all bent out of shape when they keep pulling the same handful of tractors three and four times over. Just what I have seen and experienced in the mid west. DW

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greenweenie

12-11-2003 07:23:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to WTW, 12-10-2003 13:17:41  
Hey Dave, it's your buddy from Kansas City! We are building Shannon a new tractor this year. I'm looking for a clutch drive and a flywheel for an early styled B. I see you've been kicking some butt, keep up the good work! There's only so much I can do with an F20... Hope to see you soon!
Animal



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WTW

12-11-2003 09:37:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to greenweenie, 12-11-2003 07:23:37  
Hey! How the he!! is the "Old Harley Hillbilly" from Missouri, I tell you a guy just never knows who's chain your pulling on this internet do you. Good to hear from you Animal. You asked for early styled "B" flywheel and driver. 1939/40? The reason I ask is the 39 and 40 used the same flywheel as the unstyled tractors did, which I have plenty of. Or are you looking for the tall flat hand crank one like used on the 41-46 models? Which I don't have any of those. I actually run the 41-46 Electric start flywheel on our tractors. The old Yellow Jacket has the teeth machined off the ring gear and the boy's tractor has the same flywheel with electric start on it. The electric start flywheel is the same exact diameter as original unstyled hand crank flywheel and from the side looks just like the original unstyled hand crank flywheel but more than twice as heavy. Maybe you didn't even catch that! With the starter shield on the boys tractor you cannot tell the difference from the original because you cannot see in behind it. On the face of the electric start flywheel where it has a small step in it for the cast hub cap that bolted to the side of it is no longer as I had that machined off to give it the same identical look as an unstyled flywheel. Some guys go to allot of work just to make things look good don't they! Sounds like you still have Shannon pulling the "B". Find me a pull down your way this winter and I will bring the boy's "B" down and let her pull it. I think she would like it. The boy might pout a little bit but he will get over it. Let me know if I can help. I haven't seen or talked to you since that pull in Syracuse Nebraska two years ago. You guys go winter pulling much these days? Hope to see you soon somewhere. Take Care, Dave W.

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BUD BARENIE

12-10-2003 17:41:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to WTW, 12-10-2003 13:17:41  
IT'S NOT ABOUT PROMOTING, IT'S ABOUT DOMINANCE!!!
THOSE WHO CREAT THE LAWS RULE !~!!!
THEY DON'T WANT MORE TRACTORS THEY WANT TO WIN !



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WTW

12-11-2003 06:46:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to BUD BARENIE, 12-10-2003 17:41:47  
Bud, Your absolutely right, That's why I no longer support NATPA.



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A.P.

12-10-2003 16:25:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to WTW, 12-10-2003 13:17:41  
I don't know about Chad's club, but we usually get get multiple hooks in a percentage pull in Michigan. Tractors usually come in at somewhere between 125 and 150%. A 4000 pound tractor may come in with the boat/sled weighing 5000 to 6000# pounds. All the tractors in a rotation attempt to pull the sled/boat before another weight (example 500#) before the rotation is started over again. At higher percentages for the tractors already in the rotation. Tractors usually have to pull a given distance before it is considered a successful hook.

One tactic is to try and weigh at the bottom of a group of tractors. At 3990 you will be pulling a higher percentage than the tractors weighing 4000 - 4100 as an example.

Lots of fun, you ought to try it sometime

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ChadS

12-10-2003 14:35:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to WTW, 12-10-2003 13:17:41  
I agree, if we were pulling distance. But we are not. It is not about being competitive, it is about people changing rules that don't need to be changed, or asked for to be changed. No one asked the pullers if this is what they want,, They did this in the classes above 5500,, a year or 2 ago,, made a mess out of it,, and made alot of pullers mad!! Let the heavy weight pullers govern their classes and mess them up, they left the light class alone because it was just fine the way it was. Now,, it may be in chaos. Maybe ,,,, maybe not,, Percentage pulling is the old style way of tractor pulling,, Way back when,, the percentage was the way to dermine the winners,, then time passed on,, distance pulling, and weight transfer sleds were more popular. either way,, the styles are completly different. Like all types of pulling,, I think of it as an art form, a motor sport, and a cause for divorce,, (In my case) HA HA HA ... Our club is old fashioned,, nothing wrong with being different. Right? Wheather you pull distance, or percentage,, if you enter the class, you have just as good of a chance to win as the rest of them. Right? comes down to who does their homework and who don't. same as distance pulling. Just my opinion,, ChadS

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BUD BARENIE

12-15-2003 16:21:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-10-2003 14:35:27  
BUDDY BARENIE, THAT'S BEEN MY DAD'S NICK NAME HIS DAD'S AND HIS DAD'S !!!!As a new puller, i complain early than go to work, balance is everything, and so is showing up at the pulles!!!
buddy is kind of important to me !!!! so i quess your swaring a little bit !!!!
ser !!! please have a merry christmas



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BUD BARENIE

12-11-2003 14:44:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to ChadS, 12-10-2003 14:35:27  
BEEN PULLING FOR 2 YEARS. AND I'M TIRED OF THE BULL HIT THAT'S GOING ON ABOUT HORSEPOWER. ACROSS AMEICA, PEOPLE ARE DROPPING DOWN DIVISIONS WITH BIG MOTORS, BECAUSE THET CAN'T AFFORD TO SPEND THE MONEY !!!!WHERE IN THE -LL IS THIS GOING !!!!! WHERE IS THE FUN, I'M THINKING ABOUT TAKING NEXT YEAR OFF, COMING TO THE PULLES AND JUST HELP OUT !!!! IT'S NOT PULLING FOR FUN ANYMORE, IT'S BRAGGING RITES!!!!
I'D RATHER BRAGG ON MY PAYCHECK FRIDAY THAN PULLING RITES!!!! (RITE NOW) LET'S GET TOGETHER!!!!!

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Wild Horses

12-12-2003 10:45:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to BUD BARENIE, 12-11-2003 14:44:46  
Ya know. I've been reading some of your messages BUD(dy) and it sounds to me like your just like these guys your complaining about. Ya know I have my opinions about this sort of stuff too, but I'm just going to pulls to have fun. If I do good thats just a bonus. I've watched my brothers stock M beat a 160+ hp open gear Oliver at his own game so don't talk to me about horsepower being the ultimate thing. Yeah it's pretty important, but like Chads said there is some skill, (balancing weight, weighting up to the track coditions, etc.) I've seen a lot of guys rely on that hp and dig holes, when what they really needed was to back off on the throttle.
That's what I don't understand about all you guys. You rant and rave but you're still here, you still pull. If it's so bad in NATPA or joe blow association, why are you still pulling with them?
Sure I want to try a national pull and I plan to be at Mt Pleasant next time. Just to see how I stack up. But I'm happy in our little local association. I can to go 2-3 pulls a weekend and have fun!!! All those "BIG" boys can keep their NATPA. And I'm inviting any of you guys who want to make the trip. Come on down here with us. You won't find a better association.

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dctom

12-10-2003 12:51:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Possible rule changes in reply to Wild Horses, 12-10-2003 10:28:47  
????? six classes not enough?????



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