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Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling?

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1206SWMO

12-28-2003 14:19:19

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I'm just curious as to why there are no cubic inch limits with the major antique-classic pulling associations.Is this good or bad?

You hear of 1000 cube 2-4 cyl and 1500 cube 6 cyl engines which cost a bundle to build.

I havent antique pulled since 1986 so it doesnt really affect me any at all.At the present time I have no plans to get back in to pulling even though I have a 460 IH and a 301 I can put in it.I know someone that pulls a 440 cube 460 and they have about 10 grand in the engine.

About all the people I used to pull with quit because they didnt want to or couldnt afford to build a stroker motor.A few still pull a 3 mph class but all in all pulling is pretty dead where I live compared to 20-30 years ago.

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Answer!

12-29-2003 07:20:06

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Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling? in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:19:19

Because it takes a 750cid deere to compete with a 400cid farmall or 400cid oliver or 450cid moline! And green is to popular to rule out.Can you see what it would be like if there was 1500 rpm limit and 600ci limit you could pick the winners before they got off the trailers. What do you know about a 1500ci moline (bore,stroke etc)?

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Hey.....it works

12-29-2003 15:16:12

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Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pullin in reply to Answer!, 12-29-2003 07:20:06

Speed limit works....thats all...No need for a cubic inch limit. We pull 4mph around here and 10% over RPM(not inforced)and big 700cu in deeres get beat by 280-300 cu in co-ops and farmalls. The speed limit keeps the field even.In 5mph I've seen 600 cube G's beat 2 800 cube molines a 605 massey bigger cube G's and many others. Cubes aren't everything. Without tires hitch set up and some pulling no how cubes don't mean a thing...That is untill you get into 10mph+ where you need the cubes to get momentum. For what I pull and will pull(because a 20,000$ tractor won't fit in my budget) there is no need for a cube limit

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G-MAN

12-29-2003 10:52:32

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Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pullin in reply to Answer!, 12-29-2003 07:20:06

If a 450-cube Moline is so competitive, why are guys building 1500-cube tractors? Why is building big-displacement Deeres to be competitive bad, but building big-displacement Molines so admirable?

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12-29-2003 16:00:58

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Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pu in reply to G-MAN, 12-29-2003 10:52:32

Because when your done with the Moline you have something when your done with the deere you have no money and nothing to show for it!

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G-MAN

12-30-2003 07:42:14

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antiqu in reply to LW, 12-29-2003 16:00:58

Yeah, that's why old Molines bring so much more money than old Deeres. Not everyone is interested in building a butchered fence-row derelict that is good for nothing but a trip down the track. Some of us actually use our tractors for purposes other than pulling. A 1500-cube Minnie isn't going to last long in the field, is it?

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Shutt 30

12-30-2003 18:47:38

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In An in reply to G-MAN, 12-30-2003 07:42:14

A 900 C.I.D JD won't either.

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G-MAN

12-31-2003 07:46:34

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits I in reply to Shutt 30, 12-30-2003 18:47:38

I don't particularly care much for 900-cube "G"s OR 1500-cube Molines - that was the point of my post. If you want to throw enough time and money at them, ANY tractor can be made to exceed it's factory performance levels by several times, regardless of what they started with. I just fail to see why Deere guys get bashed for building their big-cube tractors, and others that put as much or more money in their tractors are "cool" for doing so. Big-cube antiques don't impress me much. If I were going to put that kind of time and money in a tractor, it would be newer, running on diesel, and something with an actual purpose besides pulling. Like perhaps farming...

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12-31-2003 10:21:06

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limi in reply to G-MAN, 12-31-2003 07:46:34

well, IF I was going to spend a whole bunch of money on old restored car to take to shows (old Model T or 69 Camaro SS), then I'd go get me a brand new Audi TT..... .TO EACH HIS OWN!!!!! !!

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G-MAN

12-31-2003 15:46:14

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch in reply to ok, 12-31-2003 10:21:06

The only difference being that if you were willing to the work on the Ford or Camaro yourself, you could do it for MUCH less than a new Audi would cost. However, in the case of the old tractors, for what these guys put in an antique, even doing the work themselves, you COULD go buy a much newer tractor.

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what??

12-31-2003 17:39:08

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic I in reply to G-MAN, 12-31-2003 15:46:14

ok, that made no sense!

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G-MAN

01-02-2004 07:42:57

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cub in reply to what??, 12-31-2003 17:39:08

The point being that pretty much ANYONE with decent mechanical skills can restore an older domestic car. However, most guys that want a 1500-cube Moline or a 900-cube "G" don't have the tools to build one, so you have to spend big bucks for the modifications and parts. Starting to penetrate the fog now?

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12-30-2003 20:35:07

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits I in reply to Shutt 30, 12-30-2003 18:47:38

Thank You for saving me the trouble!

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1206SWMO

12-29-2003 07:56:26

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Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pullin in reply to Answer!, 12-29-2003 07:20:06

I only have second hand info on the 1500 cube MM's from other pullers I talk to.Cant give you any bore or stroke,etc.Several have said there are at least two 1500 cube MM's around???? Who knows?

The two nearest 800 MM pullers to me are over 150 miles.No big MM 6 bangers in my area.

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I don't think there are a

12-29-2003 15:58:58

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Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pu in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-29-2003 07:56:26

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Paul

12-29-2003 07:15:48

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Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling? in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:19:19

Probably because of rpm and speed limits already in place. also it would have to be a percent limit and not an out and out cube limit.why? well think this way. if you had a 500 cubic inch rule and a 10 percent rpm rule how many jds would you have pulling? probably none. how about olivers?probably quite a few. originaly I think they imposed a rpm rule and speed limit to keep field color blind competitive and easy to enforce rules.as soon as you put cubic inch rules plus other engine rules your going to be tearing every down every week.

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Donnie

12-28-2003 19:46:11

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Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling? in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:19:19

Here is my 2 cents worth. (Please dont ask for change.) I have pulled for many of years in many different forms. Garden Tractors, Field stock, Pro stock gardentractors, 30 cubic inch gardens, and now antique tractors for the last 7 or 8 years now steady. In the garden tractor pulling, it is easy to check cubic inch. Pull a few head bolts, and have your way with measuring. With the antiques it would be mighty rough checking them with out a bore scope. The best answer is the rules they have in place. (Which isn't always inforced) The divsions, the speed limits, and rpms. Its just like anything else money will rule 80% of the time. It was nothing to spend 10k on a pro stock cub cadet, and still only be in the top 5. As long as some one wants to win, the thrill of the hard to find cubic inch will always just $$$ away.

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Earl

12-28-2003 17:25:06

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Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling? in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:19:19

I don't pull on transfer sled very often, but have attended many and I think the reason they don't have a cu in limit is because it is easier to police with a speed limit, the older antiques if stock will run out of power in a hurry if they try to pull in a higher gear, so the speed limit is a great equalizer, if you have enough power in first gear and their is a 3 mph limit, you don't have a big disadvantage against someone with more cubes and power, so they pullers build a tractor for whatever division they want to run in, and a guy who wants to stay pretty much stock can also compete if he is a good driver and has good balance regardless of the color of his tractor

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Weldernils

12-28-2003 19:37:53

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Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pullin in reply to Earl, 12-28-2003 17:25:06

Speed limits do seem the best way to go to keep things fair. I'd also keep the rpm limits too. My favorite pulling club uses a stoneboat or deadweight sled. Winning is mostly about hitch, tires and driving not so much about power and speed. There's no need to worry about horsepower rules because too much can hurt more than help. We have JD B's with 10x38's that can pull well in the 7-9000# on the right track. It's like watching paint dry but they use some low gear and weight the tractor up right and just keep chuggin' down the track.

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Weldernils

12-28-2003 16:20:04

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Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling? in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:19:19

I don't know for sure 1206 but if I were to take a guess at coming up for a reasonable explanation I would have say that because every class, no matter which, has certain models of tractors that begin to show dominance as that particular class or club matures and folks find out what works best. Once that point has been reached it's hard to run on top with anything less and the next thing you know, all the same kinds of tractors are the only ones winning. Since most pulls are transfer sleds where power is key, one way to let the playing field level itself a little is to allow horsepower mods ie cams, cubes, ignitions etc. It's the only way some tractors can be made competetive. The upside is some of us can run our favorite tractors and have a chance to win and the fans get to see more of their favorites run down the track.

Different classes like you see in NATPA seem to reflect the varying degrees to which folks are willing to modify their tractors and commit their money.

On another subject. I sometimes marvel at the content and tone of replies posted. Face to face, some of these comments would be a good start towards a fat lip!

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farmall

12-28-2003 14:28:31

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Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pulling? in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:19:19

If that is what you want, why dont you join a club or organization and voice your opinion to them? That's the only way changes happen. Get involved. Generalizing on here does no good. Help change the clubs that are important to you. Just my opinion

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1206SWMO

12-28-2003 14:55:25

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Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pullin in reply to farmall, 12-28-2003 14:28:31

Farmall, I have no intentions of getting back in to pulling again no matter what the rules are so theres no need for me to join a pulling club or organization.I just dont have the time nor the desire to do it.I'm satified to just watch.

When I'm at a pull late model or old the main topic of dicussion these days seems to be the cost of pulling.

All I want to know is does the lack of a cubic inch limit help or hurt pulling?Very few seem to want to do it anymore where I'm from.

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different divisions!

12-28-2003 15:27:27

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Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pu in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:55:25

Ever heard of division 1 thru 5?? You can choose! If this bugs you so much, go to pulloff.com or other sites also for the big boys and tell them your concerns! maybe they can get you a division started for you and your friends money that feel is economical (like a div 3 superstock or a div 2 prostock?!?)...better yet!!, call NASCAR, say you'd like to race but Gordon and the boys are spending too much, you want a div 1 class.....

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1206SWMO

12-28-2003 17:04:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antiqu in reply to different divisions!, 12-28-2003 15:27:27

Different Divisions, Why all the sarcasm?You arent talking to the village idiot here.I asked a simple question so how about a simple answer.Are no cubic inch limits helping or hurting antique pulling?I didnt say that I favored limits did I?Why are you so bent out of shape?

Lets see,I saw my 1st pull in 1964 and made my first hook in 1967.Between 1967 and 1986 I hooked to a pulling sled well over 200 times with many different tractors and I won my share plus got beat too.I've hooked at every weight from 3500 to 18,000.I've been to well over 600 pulls in my life,have records of nearly every one of them,and attend at least 10 pulls every year.

I have every issue of the Puller magazine and have taken the Hook since it started.I have promoted pulls,flagged pulls,and much more.I just happen to know what Divisions 1 thru 5 are.Thank you.

I have posted on all the major pulling forums for years and have several trivia questions on www.pulloff.com right now.Also check out the pulling pictures I have posted there too of old pullers fron the late 60's.

Some classes in our area are down to 3-4 pullers a class and that includes late model stuff.Lots have just quit.It seems like few new tractors are being built.It concerns me.I love to watch pulling and dont want to see it die.

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minnie ub

12-28-2003 17:45:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In An in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 17:04:55

i think a cu.in. limit would be very hard to inforce without tearing down a motor. as far as the cost its like anything else you can spend what you want. we built our tractor ourselves besides the machine work and we have a ball with it, and don't have a fortune in it. as far as usap goes we ran this past thanksgiving with them for the first time and can't say enough of john and his crew. was a little surprised to see 800's run in the 4mph class but i believe the speed limit evened out the playing field pretty good. we'll be back and pull with usap again. the div 5 and 12mph classes don't have as many tractors in because of the money it takes to build one. i sure like to see them run.

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greenweenie

12-28-2003 15:25:35

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Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antique Pu in reply to 1206SWMO, 12-28-2003 14:55:25

Their seems to be alot of schools of tthought on limits and rules I pull alot with NAPTA and for ,the most part I really enjoy it. They seem to have one heck of a time enforcing the R.P.M. rule,so I do not know how practicle it would be to enforce a cubic inch rule. I have never pulled with U.S.

A.P Could you pullers that pull with them enlighten me on how you think the mph limits work for you.

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hammer

12-30-2003 17:52:07

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In Antiqu in reply to greenweenie, 12-28-2003 15:25:35

i have taking a stock oliver 70 and betting farmall m at 100 that have a horse in a pace class the hammer

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12-31-2003 10:24:53

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits In An in reply to hammer, 12-30-2003 17:52:07

What are you saying?That you have taken a Stock Oliver 70 and beat a 100 hp M? Must have been like 3 mph/1st gear with a 13.6 tire limit

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JD2830

01-20-2004 10:42:01

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why No Cubic Inch Limits I in reply to FB, 12-31-2003 10:24:53

I have a stock mh44 and have beaten 160 hp IH (instant headaches) no problem at all. It isnt what you put in or on the motor, its how you put it together. Driveability and balancing is the other key to winning. There are alot of idiots out there and I have beaten them all at one point in time. and oh by the way I only have 1000$ in my harris this includes restoring too. HAHAHA LOL

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