Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Something to chat about

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
ChadS

02-12-2004 06:33:48




Report to Moderator

Gentleman, I have a question, I was thinking about HP at a high rpm, I guess kinda like brake HP??? I was trying to figure out how to calculate approx, hp at rpm over stock. Here is what I have came up with, tell me if I am wrong here, Example: 70hp, @540 pto, at 1815 engine rpm. 70divided by 540=.12962963. Then I would calculate how many rpm the pto would speed up at different rpm levels, lets say, 1000 pto rpm. so,, 70divided by 540=.12962963X1000 pto rpm= 129.62 HP. at 3361 engine rpm. Just an example, would this be right, or not even close? Hope this is understandable. Any thoughts? ChadS

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Buzzman72

02-13-2004 05:30:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
Chad, lynn probably has the best explanation of the posts to date on the topic. Your formula MIGHT work if the horsepower curve was FLAT and LINEAR...Then you PROPORTIONALITY-BASED formula would be correct. But have you looked at a horsepower graph from a dyno? Most show the curve rising from idle to a certain point, and then dropping off...and SOME are irregular BETWEEN points, due to perhaps the brake specific fuel curve (BSFC), or maybe even something as oddball as an airflow restriction that's only evident during a certain resonance range (such as exhaust reversion diluting the intake charge, making less efficient combustion, but ONLY at a certain RPM range...for example).

Think about it for a second....if you could take the HP rating from the dyno at ONE rpm reading, and then just extrapolate it to whatever rpm you choose, then a horsepower or torque CURVE...WOULDN'T curve; it'd be a straight line. But the "upside" to this, if it was true, would be that you could save a lot of precious dyno time, as you'd only need to test at two rpm points to know the horsepower/torque output throughout the entire range.

Unfortunately, it just don't work that way.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
DWB

02-12-2004 20:17:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
I HESITATE TO ARTICULATE FOR FEAR THAT I MIGHT DEVIATE FROM THE TRUE AND PROPER COURSE OF RECTITUDE.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
a puller

02-12-2004 17:39:28




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
I belive it would be a % of decrease. a quadratic equation that a graph could be applyed to. say the max hp. is at 300 pto rpm. THe hp say is 65. then at 600 pto rpm is 60.

300/65=4.6%
600/60=10%. the decrease is 5.4%

then say the same motor at 1000 rpm is 50 hp. this % would be 20. that difference it 10%

I don't know if anyone else can add to waht I am trying to suggest. I just can't remeber all my math!! I jsut think that the hp increase will be a certain % difference and to a point that it will level out like a bug reverse and upside down J shaped graph.... Hopefully one of you math wizzes out there can shed some light on my "proposal," but I don't belive that it could be applyed to any other motors but the one that you test.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
lynn

02-12-2004 17:08:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
Chads..to do this the motor would have to have the same torqure at 3361 as at 1815..i don't think the motor could have that flat of a torque range..a motor will have a rising curve then flatten and start to drop at some point..the motor could be designed to do this but the peak torque would be at some point between these points..the torque of these 2 points is 202 ft lb..say the peak torque is half way between at 2588 and is 240 ft lb..this would give you 118.3 hp at that point but the motor will have to be set up to produce its peak later than 1815..lynn

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
BUD BARENIE

02-12-2004 15:17:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
CHAD I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT FOR 20 SECONDS !!
FIGURED IT OUT !!! (THE FORMULA) IT'S
CI (CUBIC INCH) X PPSI (POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH)X
BL (BALANCE)X DR (DRIVER) X DL (DUMB LUCK)EQUALL'S FP (FULL-PULL)
MOSTLY CI !!!!

SEE YAAA !!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
BUD BARENIE

02-12-2004 15:11:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
THE ENGINE WAS DESIGNED FOR A SPECIFIC TORGUE CURVE FROM THE FACTORY !!! YOU'LL HAVE TO CHANGE CAM PROFILE TO CREATE WHAT YOU WANT AT HI-RPM'S, THE TOP WILL ALWAYS FALL OFF UNTIL THE BOTTOM IS HAPPY !!!! SOUND'S LIKE IT'S TIME FOR A V-8 LOL ON THAT ONE !!!!
JUST MY DUMMM- @SS OPINION !!!!

LOVE THOSE NEW RULES !!!!! ! IN FACT I LOVE THEM SO MUCH I'M CHANGING COLORS !!!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dctom

02-12-2004 16:14:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Something to chat about in reply to BUD BARENIE, 02-12-2004 15:11:53  
HEY BUD WOULDNT BE FLAMBEAU WOULD IT LMAO



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
true hp

02-12-2004 12:47:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
The only way to check this is a dyno on the pto , and I have. example , at 540 pto rpms at 1800 engine rpms my tractor checked 42hp. now at 2750 engine rpm it still was at 42hp. It did take a lot longer to pull the engine down ,so I would say it gained a lot of torque, but not no actual hp.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
tractorboy

02-12-2004 12:34:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
I think you're on right track but HP gain % will probably drop as rpm increase as will torque. You know that if you get too much HP you'll have to hook it to a Oliver rearend if you ever expect it to stay together. HA HA!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mopower

02-12-2004 10:06:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
Increase the nevessary variables and the h.p. could be closely proportional to engine speed. However there are so many variables, it would be a guessing game that would require some skill.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
AC

02-12-2004 07:47:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
Maybe I'm all wet, but I can't see where that would hold true with a gasoline engine. Perhaps with an electric engine because there are no variables...A gas engine has a HP and torque curve. If you mean that you can calculate the hp at higher RPM's per motor, I don't think it would work. (I'm backtracking here, thinking) It would be due to the efficency, timing and camshaft capeabilities. In order to do that, you would have to have somekind of variable camshaft timing, in order to make the HP figure you started with, and increase it .12962963 per revolution, I don't think the motor combination could keep up. It would fall flat on it's face before it could turn that many more RPMs and make more HP. Maybe this is only applicable to these old tractor engines where they just stop producing at high RPM. Clear as mud? I can't transfer exactly what I mean here because I can't think this morning....maybe I will start drinking coffee! AC

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
maybe

02-12-2004 07:39:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 06:33:48  
what about decreased volumetric efficiency? increased drag and strain on parts? and othor factors that come into effect?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ChadS

02-12-2004 09:25:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Something to chat about in reply to maybe, 02-12-2004 07:39:04  
I think you are both right, In order to look at something like this, the engine has to be set up to make the most efficient power at the rpm, cam work, ignition timing, and a change in compression. The stock components would not work for that rpm range beacuse it is designed for a different rpm, Thanks, Chad



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
AC

02-12-2004 11:48:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 09:25:05  
I don't think stock or modified components are relative. I also am not referencing the durability of the engine. I am strictly speaking of the limitations and variables. In short, I think that an internal combustian engine can only be streached so far to produce so much. In an electrical or turbine engine, this could hold true, but because of the limitations of an internal combustion engine, I believe that the formula may not be applicable. Now perhaps on a rotary engine...? See, now I am awake and have also consumed a 2 liter of Pepsi, so I make more sence..LOL... AC

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ChadS

02-12-2004 14:45:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Something to chat about in reply to AC, 02-12-2004 11:48:39  
Ac,, All engines have limitations (gas) Vacuum levels, fuel delivery, compression, ign timing, air flow. Somewhere, there has to be a cam grind, carb, ign timing, and maybe or maybe not a compression change. I would consider that if you would redesign the engines cam specs, carb, and etc, you could make more power at a higher rpm,, but you are right by what I was asking about just reving it up and changing nothing, Chad

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Farmall Doctor

02-13-2004 09:43:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Something to chat about in reply to ChadS, 02-12-2004 14:45:21  
Here's a crazy idea!! he he On the cam and it's drive gear...a centrifugal "timing governor" to advance cam timing with increase of RPM!? The weights could be attached to a kind of worm and sector so that the driving force doesn't simply make it stay in the "home" position. Don't mind me, just one of my crazy ideas....FD



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy