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Need some advice for a tune up on a M

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M Guy

09-03-2004 10:46:26

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I need to tune up my M for a tractor pull here in a few weeks and also am going to need it on the auger.It really does run pretty good for sitting for the last 20 years.I have changed the points and plugs along with oil and plugs but am really wanting to get the most out of it I can with no budget.

TIA

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CASEPOWER

09-03-2004 17:19:23

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to M Guy, 09-03-2004 10:46:26

Find someone with a dyno and tune your tractor. I haven't seen a old gas tractor that was put on a dyno, that you couldn't improve before it came back off the dyno. It will be the cheapest HP you could buy. Find a local dealer to see if they will rent you some time, a lot will.

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Jake G.

10-05-2004 13:53:44

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Re: Need more RPM's out of a International 560 in reply to CASEPOWER, 09-03-2004 17:19:23

How do you get more RPM's out of a International 560. It only recs to about 2400 rpms if im lucky. I would like 3000 or even 4000 rpms. can someone help me

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ChadS

09-05-2004 09:07:11

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to CASEPOWER, 09-03-2004 17:19:23

I agree, you will find a few HP in there after getting the engines timing, and carb set. But,, there is more there to be found. I am not talking about internal engine parts, I am talking about tuning all of the engines controls. Carburators, Governors, and Distributors. To have a good puller, or a workhorse in fact,, it comes down to recalibrating the these parts. It is not diffcult to do, for the do it your self mechanic. First, lets look at 2 critical components, the Distributor, and the governor. These two components is the key to unlock throttle reponse. This is the first place I start, when I dyno tune one in the shop. The distributor,, has a mechanical advance underneath the points plate. 9out of 10 tractors that come in,, are stuck, or broken, or worn out. 50 year old neglected parts,, it happens,,, right? This engine control contributes to proper ingntion timing advance when the rpms increase in the engine. If the advacne mechanism sticks,, you dont get the timing advancement from the distributor, thus making the engine lazy when you open upthe throttle. It also robs torque from the engine through out the entire rpm range of the engine. There is 2 springs on the mechanical advance mechanism, these springs have no perfomance gains whatso ever in stock form,, they are so stiff, that it would take 4000 rpm to activate them the way they should operate normally in performance sitiations. Replace these springs with ones from a Chevrolet distributor recurve kit. In this recurve kit, there is 3 sets of springs,, different tensions for different rpm ranges to activate the advance. I use the 2 softest tension springs in the kit. It frees it up, and responds quicker to rpm changes. Basicly it is affecting the reaction time of the ignition advance from the distributor. Not changing the amount of degrees it advances, just the reaction time at which it triggers. It is a notciable difference you can hear when you rev it up, the throttle responce is alot faster, more precise to the constant ignition advance changes in a low rpm pulling engine. Will it give you more power on the dyno??? maybe a hp or 2,, but that is not what you are after in this case, it is a step by step place to start when looking for a bit more performance. Next post will be about IH governors. ChadS

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ChadS

09-05-2004 09:39:16

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:07:11

IH, H-450 governors. In my opinion, one of the best governors you can ask for on a puller. Too bad, they cant interchange with other colors,LOL!! There is a few different styles of the IH governor. A 2 weight and a 4 weight governor. The 2 weight system to me is the best to use on a puller. With very little modification,, it can be tuned up to be as sensitive as a $300+ rocket governor, for less than 30 bucks if the governor is in good shape. One of the biggest problems on both governors is there is not alot of room for rpm increases. Another is not keeping the carb open all the way when it is under a hard pull on the engine. Did you know, that under a hard pull on the engine,, the Stock IH governor shuts the carb down as rpms drop? I am talking about when you are hooked up to the track, and you power stall it. As the rpms drop, the governor spring is weak, and the low spring tension lets go, and allows the flyweights to shut down, RESULT,, the engine dies off at a faster rate because the governor gave up and shut the carb down. All you have to do is change out the governor spring. Now granted,, you can go to the hardware store 50 times, get frustrated, and maybe find what you need. Or you can get one from me,,, or the competition, either way,,, Like I mentioned before about the response time in the distributor advance, the same thing applies to the governor. A stiffer spring, speeds up the governor speed operation, making it more sensitive to rpm, and throttle responce. Combined, the distirbutor mods I mentioned, and the spring, you are looking at almost tripling the response time the engine goes from idle to full throttle rpms. Also, the new spring will hold the rpms longer under a load, instead of it falling on its face, it will hang in there a bit longer before it gives up and stalls out. Assured, the carb is open all the way, even after it dies, before,, it would be shut down due to the spring shutting it down as I mentioned before. As I mentined also,, the 2 weight governor is the best for stock or modified engines, in an IH,,,. The 4 weight, M&W style is a lazy governor, now granted they do work,, but the reponse time is very very slow VS the 2 weight. Also the 4 weight is harder to get over 2000 rpms out of it, with out having to readjust the linkages, or grind the weights down so they are lighter. You find the 4 weght governors more common in Super series tractors, I think it was possibly an option towards the later years of production. Granted the 4 weight will hold a more constant, steady rpm when it reaches full throttle, but it reacts so slowly, it is not really a good performance part for a constanly changing engine speed in a pulling tractor. Response time in the engine controls. Say it over and over,, LOL!! Next post will be Marvel Shebler Carb modifications for the SuperH-450 Farmall. ChadS

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ChadS

09-05-2004 09:55:51

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More on Ih Governors,,, in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:39:16

Ok, so lets say you got the right governor spring, and need some more rpms. Lets look at this,, First off, when dyno tuning, the no load rpms have to be able to go over rated rpm specs on the pto. Why?? There is more to dyno tuning than just a 540 reading. It is certain engine charateristics that one looks for in performance upgrades. First is to make sure the carb stays open when the coals are poured to it under a load. The spring handles this, and yes some have to readjust the vertical linkage up to the carb. We have 2 different springs for the governors,, One for the H-350, and the other is for the M-450. 2 different lengths and spring tensions between the two models. Ok increasing the rpms can be done by backing out the long stop bolt located towards the bottom of the governor, stock springs when you do this, it may increase maybe 100-200 rpm if you are lucky,, with our springs, the H-350 can run up to 2500 rpm maxed out, and the M-450 can run 2200. Varies a bit from tractor to tractor. For those who want more rpms than that, it takes a short spring, and you will have to readjust the vertical linkage to compensate the idle rpm speed. Hayfarmer,, have you tried that yet with the linkage to get it to idle down? ChadS

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Jake G.

10-05-2004 13:49:11

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Re: International 560 Governor in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:55:51

How do you get more RPM's out of a International 560. It only recs to about 2400 rpms if im lucky. I would like 3000 or even 4000 rpms. can someone help me

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460/560

12-08-2005 06:25:25

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Re: International 560 Governor in reply to Jake G., 10-05-2004 13:49:11

just take it off and let her rev

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Shaggy

09-06-2004 08:10:25

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Re: More on Ih Governors,,, in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:55:51

I have a question for you. We have a super A that has no governor action at all just a bunch of RPMS. Is that because the spring is to tight?
Thanks

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ChadS

09-06-2004 09:07:24

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Re: More on Ih Governors,,, in reply to Shaggy, 09-06-2004 08:10:25

Nothing inbetween idle and wide open? Describe more,,, ChadS

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Shaggy

09-06-2004 11:35:27

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Re: More on Ih Governors,,, in reply to ChadS, 09-06-2004 09:07:24

Sorry about that. You can control it with the hand throttle for normal operation (mowing, riding around etc.) but when you get it under a load at part throttle it just lug's until you give it the gas. And at full throttle it seems run at what you put the lever at. It will run 2400 rpms.

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ChadS

09-07-2004 07:33:24

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Re: More on Ih Governors,,, in reply to Shaggy, 09-06-2004 11:35:27

Like a dead spot till the slack in the governor, or linkage catches up, and then it is fine right? You have something loose between the linkage, and the internal arm going to the weight assembly, or the pins in the governor is worn, and holds, or sticks till either momentum, or the linkage, jars it loose. Is there any way to put that governor together wrong and it does that?? I have a 56 cub low boy, I put it together wrong, and did what you described, No, this little cub aint no puller,,, LOL barely pulls the mower deck in low gear,,, Hope this helps,, it is inthe linkage, inside the governor would be my guess. it does not take much movement to throw it out of adjustment,, with the linkage at idle,, the weights in closed postion, check the linkage and the assmbly for excess movement. it should be all tight and no slack any where. ChadS

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ChadS

09-05-2004 10:47:13

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CARBS in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:55:51

IH had the right idea with this carb. They made alot of changes throughout the years with the internal parts of the marvel Shebler carbs they used on the Super H-450. To the best of my knowledge there is 5 different size venturis available for this carb, 6 if you count the IH 6 cyl venturi,, more on that subject later,, Most carbs, from the factory are jeted low, or lean, and usually were set for a 540 pto reading. Fuel economy, and what type of fuel used were the main stay at the time, power was sacraficed, just depened on the application the farms used their tractors for. Basicly I am going to talk about a good way to pick up 5-10 more HP by a jet change. The shebler carb is a metering stem carb, like all the others, a metering stem meters the amount of fuel that enters the venturi, from the bowl of the carb. there is 2 ways to meter the amount of fuel to the venturi, first is through the main jet adjustment screw, which meters how much fuel comes out of the bowl to the main jet, second is the metering stem. which meters the flow out of the main jet. Like I said fuel economy and the type of fuel kept these parts limited for performance back then, but todays new wave of antique tractor usage, (pulling) and plow days, it would be nice to make a good display of HP and running charateristics of your puller. Let me explain what happens to a basicly stock carb when it is on the dyno,, the engine, wont have a good torque curve, it has a low hp reading at 540, and when you pull out the plugs, they are either whitish color. or light brown. when tuning on the dyno, I like to see a nice cocca brown plug color at 540 and blow 540 rated pto rpm. then you know you are getting the right amount of fuel, for the engine you have, stock or modified. On most tractors I dyno,, I can remove the main jet adjustment screw compltely fromthe carb, and that tells me it is asking for more fuel. Time for a jet, and metering stem resize!! More later,,, ChadS

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ChadS

09-06-2004 09:05:44

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More On IH Carbs in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 10:47:13

If you have a carb, that is under suspicion of needing rebuilt, remove the entire carb from the manifold and either have it rebuilt, or if you can do it yourself, rebuild it. Good kits are around 10-25 dollars. Make sure all the passages are clear, there is several passages casted, and drilled into the throttle body, under the venturi (on later carbs) then there is a small plug on the opposite side of the fuel line inlet, that is a air passage for the idle ciucuit. usually, if the carb is clean and runs well, then all that has to be removed is the carb bowl to perform a jet and metering stem resize. More in a few,,,,ChadS

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ChadS

09-07-2004 07:06:12

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Re: More On IH Carbs in reply to ChadS, 09-06-2004 09:05:44

Ok, you have a good running carb on your tractor, and ready to rejet the carb. All the work is done in the bowl of the carb. After removal, you will disassemble the parts from the bowl,,, Main load adjustment screw, and the brass fitting, the center brass metering stem, (center of the carb, where the venturi sets over.) Be careful though,,, the small brass idle stem is very fragile, and if you drop the carb bowl, or bump the stem, damage to the stem will result. Use compressed air to clean out the passages in the bowl, or let it soak in cleaner if it is extremly filthy. Now you need to take the carb bowl with ya to town to the hardware store, To the drill bit isle!! You need to find the drill bit, that fits the main load jet that will tell you what size your current jet is, then you go up 4-5 more sizes larger drill bit. Ok, back home,, LOL,, drill out the main jet with the larger bit, then, with the same bit, drill out the bottom 2 holes on the metering stem. Clean out the shavings from the bowl, and the metering stem, and reasemble the bowl. On the main load adjustment for starters,, turn it all the way in on the seat, and back it out 1-1/2 turns, should allow the engine to start with out being too rich,,, Basicly the engine needs to be warmed up, and when you set the main load adjustment,, Get a helper to run the throttle, might be a bit safer, and save ya from running back n forth so much,,, Back the main load adjustment out till it starts to run rich, or smoke black out the pipe,, then turn it back in till it just smooths out. idle it back down, and rev it up a few times, there should be just a hint of black smoke come out of the pipe when you rev it up, (no load). To get the most out of this, is to put it on the dyno, or a pto driven implement to work the engine harder. I can tell you all this,, every time I rejet a carb on an IH, always found 5-10 more hp at 540, just depends on how good your ignition, and compression, cu in. Do I need a bigger carb??? More on that later,, ChadS

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jakeK

09-16-2004 14:51:37

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Re: More On IH Carbs in reply to ChadS, 09-07-2004 07:06:12

I was reading your comments about the IH carb, can
the same thing be done on a JD with a MS carb, I
would like to pickup some extra horsepower, and
wonder if this would be an easy way to do it.

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Hayfarmer

09-05-2004 09:34:01

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:07:11

I am in a similar situation as the original post. I don"t know if there are any serious pulls in my part of the country but I would like to squeeze out the most hp I can from a SMTA. I run a pto baler so rpm increase is not necessarily the answer, more like being able to hold the higher rpm with a load. Other consideration is smoother response on the throttle. I tried a heavier governor spring, it was JD number someone recommended. Got higher RPM but lost idle below 1000. For some reason in my area I am having problems finding a source for srpings, where you can just look at a board or drawer, especially in heavier ones. So tell me about governors. Think I may still have some of thsoe chevy springs around from trying to squeeze a little more out of my 76 chevy pu

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ChadS

09-05-2004 09:40:40

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to Hayfarmer, 09-05-2004 09:34:01

Read on Brother! Chad

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Hayfarmer

09-05-2004 11:21:18

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:40:40

I live out in Washington state. Didn't realize how short we are of hardware stores that stock a variation on springs. There are plenty of home improvement stores with screen door springs, NAPA has some carb throttle return springs, found a few other places with not much selection. A post emntioned the JD spring which I got. It also mentioned the "Do It" hardware spring numbers. So far have not found that hardware line. Found one other spring that I have not tried but has a little heavier wire than the stock one. I have messed with the throttle linkage. How do you get adjust ment in the vertical linkage, by bending? The horizontal linkage, throttle lever to bell crakn was not right when I got it. Since I hadn't had the dealings with IH before I assumed there was a spring on either side of the bell crank attachment. I notice, especially when dark that I see some smoke when idling, I have adjusted the jet to where it seems to work best but wonder if it is still running a bit rich. How do I get one of your springs?

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ChadS

09-05-2004 12:59:35

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to Hayfarmer, 09-05-2004 11:21:18

call 574-893-7437 indiana time, or email me at ChadS3@hotmail.com Earl or Chad. Do you have a 2 weight governor, or a 4 weight? ChadS

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ChadS

09-05-2004 09:42:12

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Re: Need some advice for a tune up on a M in reply to ChadS, 09-05-2004 09:40:40

The governor spring you tried,, and the description you have, is the spring being too stiff, or too short. keep looking!! ChadS

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