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The saga continues,,,,,

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ChadS

05-18-2005 16:24:11

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And, so it begins,,, AGAIN!! Something Wilder is back in the shop, and is finally torn apart. Last year, I had it down, and welded the sleeves in the top of the block deck. Ill never try to do that again!!! Just way too much distortion of the top of the sleeves. The pistons were torn up so bad I cannot reuse them. So, that block is a large boat anchor!!! The origianl engine built was a 270 cubic inch, 95+ hp, and thats what Im going back to. Why do I need anymore than that I kept on thinking. The new block is on the stand, the stroker crank is sitting in it, and all marked out for a full days grinding to make er swing. man, the crank does not even swing, it hits the block in 3 places already!!!! Few swipes with the ol grinder and GONE! On to the block to clear the rods. Ive learned a few things about these engines in the last few times Ive had it apart,, Only thing now that weighs on my mind is how much to grind out on the bottom of the bore to clear the rod. Im hoping that I dont go through the water jacket, and have to plug it off, and take the risk of leaking water again. The old motor, was famous for making me buy an oil contract to keep good oil in it for when I wanted to run it. One of the reasons I took out the original 270 and built a bigger engine. I still kick myself in the tail for that one, wasted $$, wasted time. Im documenting this build up this time round, that way, I know whats going on, and have things on paper once again. Other new parts will include a W4 ring and pinion, and a LP manifold, electronic ignition, and a high torque starter. I get sick of buying rebuilt 12 volt conversions, that just dont hold up. I go thru 3 of em a year on that ol H!! I break the bendix on em, and burn up the windings as well. I will not pull start it, that just tears up trannys. This time, it will live, this time, it will run, this time, it will put the competition in second place, cause it will soon return. And bad as it used to be!! You all on this board have taught me so much as well as I hope Ive helped you all, and I thank you, each and every one. even the negative ones, cause it lit a fire, and its not going to be blown out so easy this time. Im shooting for start up, as soon as I can, I have a difficult search ahead to find exactly what Im looking for for my pistons, and nope, not going to have em special built. 100% IH in this one once again! No more BS, that H is gonna rock and roll, just like it used to!!! Yeah! Im happy! Im putting the cart before the horse, but ya know,, I know this time, it will be right on the $$$. Wont have to do this ever again. I learned something. Bigger, is not always better. have a good nite gents, git ready, cause its comming back! The warning bells have been sounded! ChadS

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buickanddeere

05-20-2005 08:04:27

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-18-2005 16:24:11

How about brazing the sleeves in? The copper or silver alloy will flex a little. Just preheat the entire block in an old self cleaning electric stove if it will fit. If not build a box over the BBQ and place the block inside for several hours. Or just apply some high temp wonder glop on the sleeves before pressing in and dry deck the block. If running on M85 she will never get too hot.

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ChadS

05-20-2005 08:22:49

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to buickanddeere, 05-20-2005 08:04:27

Yeah, I tried on a spare block, I warmed the block up a bit, but it just did not seem to hold well. Not alot of area to hold it together. The new block is still running in the block, and not bored out beyond the limits to use sleeves. its only .060 difference in the old bore, and the bore I went with. Yeah its running on E85 at 50/50. it ran at 295psi ,and never got hot, or preignited, or detonated. I love tht stuff!!! Bought 200 gallons of it and had it delivered, was around 1.99 a gallon, the 93 octane mixed in was around 2.18. What kind of sealer works well in hot, oily conditions? Im cutting through the oil gallery, and inserting a tube inside the area where I cut through,,, I can braze it in,, but I dont want to heat the block excessively and make the cast brittle. Last time, I brazed the holes shut and ground em down again, then, pin holes popped up, and leaked oil dropped oil pressure by 15 psi or so. I think that is why the pistons were so gauded up on the skirts, that and the bores being warped at the top where it was welded in. Ill post a picture or 5 to show ya what Im up to. Thanks!! ChadS

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buickanddeere

05-20-2005 12:09:45

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-20-2005 08:22:49

Can you get to the end off the block where the oil gallery was rifle drilled in from? Just find the right dia of AN tubing and press it in for a sleeve. Those cylinder walls must be pretty thin and flexing. May reduce some blowby and increase the HP by hard decking the block? She won't get too hot with that fuel.

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ChadS

05-20-2005 15:57:55

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to buickanddeere, 05-20-2005 12:09:45

I found some steel tubeing to fit inside the oil gallery, fits snug, and Im going to braze them in. Yeah, the old block was pretty thin sleeved, Im thinking they were right at .120,, if that,,, it ran for 7 seasons, but, Id estimate over 75 runs a year during those times. Last time I ran the ol 270 was in 2001, pulled it out and built bigger. Just was not the way to go,,, let me tell ya!! It was strong, but too many headaches. At first, the cyl pressure was around 290, towards the end, it was down to 270 one was down to 260, that one, the sleeve balooned out, cracked, and a repair sleeve inserted, at that time, I welded all the sleeves in place. then she really started leaking water in the oil. it normally ran around 180 degrees all the time, it just was worn out,,,, The new block is very thick in the cyl walls, the thinnest is around .180. I am hard blocking it, half way past the water plate, just enough to flow water through the top side of the engine, and the head and still use a stock water pump. I did get #1 to clear, and did not have to grind as much out of the block. When I built it the first time, the crank was built up so much, I could not clear it, so I ground the crank throws down along the sides and tapered them down to make room. So, this time round, I did not have to remove mch at all from the block. I did manage to stay out of the water jacket at the bottom of the bores, I did notch them, but lots of meat there to remove, and lots still left over. Should not have any trouble holding water this time!!! I ordered pistons today as well, found a set of high altitude gas pistons for a C-200 IH engine. Same as a IH C-301, but, dont have to buy 6 of em! to use only 4. I think it will be just as powerful as the old one, maybe a few more HP, but not outragous like the 340ci engine I junked. bout 95 to 100, nothing more, hopefully nothing less. it turns over real good, nice and easy, does not seem to bind up in places where the big engine did from the rod ratio being off. Should be able to plow with her!! it's looking that good so far! ChadS

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buickanddeere

05-20-2005 19:15:31

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-20-2005 15:57:55

How about "Extrude Honing" the intake/head/exhaust? The extra airflow and higher % filling of the cylinders. Will likely make the new engine stronger than the old/bigger engine.

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ChadS

05-20-2005 20:08:44

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to buickanddeere, 05-20-2005 19:15:31

Ive never heard of it. The port runners have been opened up, both intake and exhaust, manifold too, the valve bowls have yet to be touched, still running stock valves too. I do know, when I did port the head and manifold, it jumped about 7 hp more. Its running a Super M carb, with a #33 venturi (33/32 opening). It takes a breath, and responds very fast when the coals poured to it. I do have to completly close the throttle to start it, I have it open slightly, it wont crank cause it builds compression, and stalls the starter, even with a new 12 volt, and a 1000 amp battery. If I was able to talk about efficency, Id say its way up there, but no where near the potential it can be, or to utilize it properly. Its been a while since Ive redone this design of engine. Improvements could be made, and the modern science could be a benefit to this engine. Just had to get it to hold water fisrt. The ol 270 was a great engine, it has done a wonderful job in the past, and thats why I went back to it, great power, strong torque, and other than the water in the oil, it was bullet proof. I boat anchored the 340 stroker. Thats the one that leaked, broke blocks, and a huge waste of time. It in the bottom of a lake somewhere. LOL! So, i fI have so much air flowing into the intake, and still have some restriction left from the valve bowls, that may help, Im not going to big valve it, its still under 2200 rpms, so I cant see why the big valve could help much in this case. Im also running a cratered piston this time, so I am thinking it will help create extra turbulence to get the air in, and out, VS the flat top, with a slight dome. ChadS

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buickanddeere

05-21-2005 06:26:39

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-20-2005 20:08:44

Extrude hone is a process where abrasive suspended in a medium similar to silly putty is pumped through the ports. At the areas of greatest restriction it cuts the obstruction out of the way. It doesn't remove metal from where it doesn't obstruct flow. The process is used in areospace and nuclear application where machine tools can't reach. Or where 1/10 of a thou has to be honed off turbine or stator blades and machine tools can't.

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ChadS

05-21-2005 06:42:35

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to buickanddeere, 05-21-2005 06:26:39

It really smooths out the ports. Ive heard of that, but never knew what it was named. How about piston design?? See, Up at around 300 psi, thats almost a diesil engine, and Im wondering if a cupped style, or a crater piston can help and give it more space to let the burn take place and create a swirling effect, aimed at the valves. Kinda going off the origianl fire crater design IH used in the later engines, just wondering how much of an advantage the design really is. Like a trick flow Aluminum cyl head for the chevys. The areas are not hard to reach with a die grinder,, just never got that far when I built the head, It was a inbetween pulls type of swap,,,, ya know how that goes,,, The head ,and intake are a very short path from the carb to the chamber, and Id bet that its a fast moving flow, would a spacer plate help between the carb, and manifold help much to give it just a tad more air in there? Mite help it take an easier breath??? Chad

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buickanddeere

05-22-2005 20:42:06

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-21-2005 06:42:35

A spacer between the carb and manifold will increase plenium volume which may improve peak torque and likely will improve peak HP. A spacer to set the intake manifold out a couple of inches away from the head may also work. The wall finish of the intake manifold and ports should not be mirror smooth but rough. The tubulance along the rough walls helps keep the fuel suspended in the airflow. Instead of puddling at turns where centifical force slings the heavier fuel into the outside of the curve. Combustion chamber shape is a science and art as well. No one completely understands fluid dynamics. No one can explain how a bumble bee flys by the way. Is there a quench area in that cylinder head or is it 100% open chamber?

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ChadS

05-23-2005 07:54:57

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to buickanddeere, 05-22-2005 20:42:06

Basicly straight sided, but only covers about little over 1/2 the surface of the top of the piston. Ive milled the head down to where the governor linkage has a notciable slant where it hooks up to the carb. I can machine the governor housing and gain that area back, and take a bit more off to make some room for a carb spacer. Not much on space inbetween the head and manifold. The exhausts are smooth in the ports, the intakes were opened, and polished, then went over once more with a rough grit emery cloth in a die grinder to make a rough surface. It basicly stops about 3 inches in to the place where the die grinder cant reach. both Int, and exh bowls have yet to be touched. So there has to be something there to add a bit more space, and flow to the air/fuel mix. The valves are shrouded too, so its only using bout 1/2 of the valves on the open side of the chamber. Chad

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buickanddeere

05-23-2005 14:26:28

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-23-2005 07:54:57

If you can get a quench area where the piston gets within 40-60 thou of the head. This "quench" really stirs the air and gives turbulance in the combustion chamber which mixes the air/fuel. And this turbulant air/fuel being squirted out sideways from between the piston and head reduces the tendency for detonation. The main claim to a "Hemi" is that it breaths better as the valves are not shrouded by the head/piston/each other.

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ChadS

05-24-2005 07:38:35

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to buickanddeere, 05-23-2005 14:26:28

Thats what I think will improve by running a crater style piston VS a flat top. Im giving it a bit of space under the flat area of the head by putting the crater under it. On the Ih firecraters for the IH 6 cyls, I have to point the arrow towards the back of the block, instead of the front. The spark plugs are on opposite sides on these engines, 6 cyl, plugs on the left side, 4 cyls, on the right, so I gotta put em in backwards to put the crater on the correct side. Ive got about oh,,, .125. 130 on the narrow side of the head, for space around the shrouded side of the valve, the crater piston, mite help evacuate, and draw a bit more from this area of the chamber due to the new movement in air from the piston design?? I have decided to bore out the throttle body of the Shebler carb to the 301 butterfly, where its like a 1.5 diameter, and the old carb is 1.25. Which is commonly stock in these series of carbs. Years back, I had built a tunnel ram intake, I chopped off the manifold flange right at the split, and made a bit larger box right above the carb this seemed to help, but was thrown out cause it wasnt stock in appearence. It was but not really,, LOL! I figured if that seems to help it on the dyno, I look into an aftermarket intake like the bigger LP manifolds, or,, well Im not for sure whats available for a H engine these days for that! Ive never had problems at all with preigntion, and detonation while using ethanol, even at 290-300 psi, I can fire it, work the daylights out of it on the dyno, and run smooth as silk, and make power at the same time. From what ive learned over the years about this fuel, that with 10% ethanol, it bumps the octane rating up 3 points, where if you added it to lets say 87 octane, it now would make 89 with 10% added. same goes with a 93 octane fuel, it does more,, with less I want to say. it is a very cold, slow burning fuel. Not intended on high rpms, over 3000, it cant lite the fire cause it is very hard to ignite. All it does is wet the plugs out, cause your engine drinks so much more at that rpm, and floods it out. Id say that why it dont work well in car engines at high rpms back then when ethanol was first tried in the car engines. The rpms were too great to do what ethanol really does, helps out a low rpm engine. Chad

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buickanddeere

05-24-2005 14:48:06

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-24-2005 07:38:35

With a gap of more than 60 thou between the head and piston. The airfuel mixture and flame front tends to be cooled by the combustion chamber metal and doesn't fully burn. The turbulance is much less when a sizable gap is left between the head and piston.A highly turbulant and evenly mixed air/fuel mixture has a lowered tendedncy to detonate all other factors equal. Ever engine has it's quirks but a piston with some or all of it having a flat top improves power. The flat area has to be 60 thou or less from a flat portion of the head at TDC. Auto manufactures today are building 10, 10.5 and even 11 to 1 large engines with flat top pistons. And running on pump gas, however electronic control does go a long way to control detonation. The Deere two cylinders for several reasons will dontonate on pump gas at modest compresison ratio a Farmall won't. The very large combustion chamber without a quench area is very efficient at starting and keeping a hot fire burning. The low ratio of wall area vs. volume soaks less heat out of the compressed gases on the compression stroke. one of the reasons why small motor cycle engine run 10+ compression no problem.

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KBMO

05-20-2005 05:47:11

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-18-2005 16:24:11

I agree. Keep building them smaller. I like to win ( ha ha ).

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WTW

05-19-2005 07:28:56

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-18-2005 16:24:11

Chad, What we tell people when they ask what how big our "B"s" are, is: It"s not how big it is rather it"s what you can do with it! This statement can also apply to other subjects as well!! When you are limited to what you can do for what ever reasons, build it tough don"t worry so much about big and pull it in classes that best fit it capabilities. If someone wants to build a bigger one and think they really accomplished something when they beat you, imagine how good it makes you feel when you beat them!! It happens! Good Luck, DW

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jd b puller

05-20-2005 19:06:24

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to WTW, 05-19-2005 07:28:56

I here you WTW. I pulled a B with a power block and no extra mods for 5-6 years. Didn"t win all the time (maybe 15-20%), but usually placed and usually beat a LOT of good M"s, H"s, A"s, WD-45"s and an occasional G in the 3500-5000# classes. I always hated it when you and the boy showed up though... (hehehe) The fun part was when someone with a hot tractor would approach you after the pull and say "man, what have you got in that thing?" and I"d reply, "about 30 HP". First they"d call me a liar and when it finally sunk in, the expression on their face is priceless, especially since most guys were pushing 100HP+... Very satisfying for a guy with a $1200 tractor to beat the $12000 tractor. I ran it one year with a missing oil ring on one cylinder - smoked like a pro-stocker people just couldn"t figure out what I was doing...

Funny sport - theres no purse money, no glory, not nuthin but fun and people think they need to buy tropies with their tractors... Just my $0.02

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ChadS

05-21-2005 06:28:21

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to jd b puller, 05-20-2005 19:06:24

Ive always battled the WD's with 38 rear tires, those seem to be the ones to pull in the top 3,, till I seen Those little stingers run down the track,,, Ive pulled against DW and the boy a fewtimes at Hartford, and Princeton a few times, they are always a tough lite pulling team. Years and years back, a freind of mine had a hopped up JD B, granted, it wasnt right, but it was impressive! He would run the percentage up and up, and Id play catch up, till I built my second Farmall H.. Coinsidently,, that little JD B was called "Super Bee" had the decal on the side grilles that were used on the Dodge Super Bee. In our club, the Ollie 77's and 88's, a few MM U's, JD G's got beat by the little H's of ours, and I may have been a bit boastful at the time, But it sure was fun to see them all say "HUH??? What???" Couldnt pull against a Case though,,, He sold it before it got really set up, but when it did,, it was hard to beat. But yeah,, when the little tractors beat the big ones,, it causes a bit of envy. But, Im glad I was there. Chad

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ChadS

05-19-2005 08:50:06

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to WTW, 05-19-2005 07:28:56

DW, you got class. The old H is going back to the way it once was. Just hope I remember how to drive it. Like riding a bike?? LOL! Chad

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Flogger

05-19-2005 07:45:49

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to WTW, 05-19-2005 07:28:56

That's a very good point. Antique pullers tend to get obsessed with horsepower and building bigger and bigger engines. They get that big engine and impressive dyno numbers, get to the track and find they can't get it hooked then. Seems like you never hear it on here but too much power loses about as many pulls as too little.

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ChadS

05-19-2005 08:51:13

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to Flogger, 05-19-2005 07:45:49

That is the honest gospel truth right there. Chad

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FarmerSid

05-19-2005 04:38:53

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-18-2005 16:24:11

Right on ChadS! Please keep us updated on what your doing. Could you post some pictures of inside the block where you have to do some grinding for the crank to swing? I really like to see some shots of that.

Cheers!

Sid

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ChadS

05-19-2005 09:01:24

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to FarmerSid, 05-19-2005 04:38:53

Its not as bad as I once though it was,,, the crank hits the oil pump, and the housing where it goes into the block, on #1 throw, just barely hits, the #2 throw hits it hard. #4 hits the little casting tab between 3 and 4 cyls, after that the crank swings. rods,, thats a differnt story, I have to grind the webbing out of the carb side of the block smooth, and 4 times. lots of meat there, but lots of grinding too. The cam is a toothpick where the rods pass through, Ive had it for years that way, and holds up. If it was me, Id stay under 5.5 stroke for a first time build up, and then see where it can take you from there. Im already past 5.5 and know where to cut, Im back to 5-3/4 with stock rods. Was the best engine I ever had. I had pictures of it, but cant find em anymore,, Ill take some this week when I get the chance, and post them on here. on measuring the head thickness,,, use caplipers, and estimate its a visual method, cause the tips dont fit in there enough to give an accurate measurement. Unless you have a very very small pair of calipers. You could measure from the deck, and measure down to the valves, and kinda rough look at the triangle area to see whats possible to mill off. Id go with .125, and leave it if your going to mill for compression. Chad

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FarmerSid

05-19-2005 10:52:48

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Re: The saga continues,,,,, in reply to ChadS, 05-19-2005 09:01:24

Just got the 300U head back from the shop. They took 0.100 off. They checked it for cracks first and found none. Glad to hear that. Crank is going in tonight and head is getting assembled.

Cheers!

Sid

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