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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Power for 2nd gear

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BUDD

11-12-2006 18:05:33

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I need some input for our club. We are talking 3500 to 7500 lbs non cut 15.5/38 or 14.9/38 tire size, stock block, (no big bores) no stroke, Factory carb, manifold, head. We are talking about 77, 88, H, M, 450, A, B, G, 70, U, UB, 44, DC. Are there any tractors with these specs that could pull in second gear without killing the motor (I know that track conditions play into this, but as a rule of thum type thing)? I would think it would take 75 hp to run second gear and spin out. What do you all think????? ???

BUDD

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Opinion (Long Post)

11-14-2006 09:34:50

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

Is a speed limit the real way to go? The puller that has the horsepower to pull faster than a given limit don't like it because he wants to keep his speed advantage and the advantage isn't there if you make him pull the same speed as everybody else. The puller that don't have enough power to get to the speed limit is at a lesser advantage and he don't like it. The person on a limited budget that can weight and tune most any tractor to pull a given speed limit really likes it as he knows once he has reached that point, money is done and skill takes over. Point is a speed limit is the way to go and will even the playing field. Is it perfect? No, but it is the best of any option that is out there. Low gear rule is the biggest joke that tractor pulling has ever seen (stock or modified)! Low gear speeds vary way to much on stock tractors let alone what they will run when people get done putting different size tires and gears on and in there tractors. If you have enough of so called stock / slow speed pullers that want to pull a given speed decide what you like and get these people to vote on it and make a class for it, whether it be 1.5 or 4 mph. The people that want to go faster than that do the same or pull an open class. Let the majority rule. Fact is the majority will end up with the way they want it anyway and that is the way it is, except it. For the guys that didn't get there way you better find more pullers like yourself and get a class / association the way you like it and support it or it won't last either. Now for the guy that wants to pull his "stock" creeper gear tractor in a class that speed is faster than he can reach, let him, every old sow finds an acorn once in a while. In the same token don't cry your eyes out when the faster mph class beats you either, you knew what the limit was when you signed up. I like to see a variety of classes for everybody to pull in but lets face it some won't get what they want. The biggest waste of time I see is the guy crying STOCK. Forget about stock and concentrate on speed and other limits for these so called stock classes and the stock concern will take care of itself. Other limits that will also help keep stock type tractors in stock type classes as well give no advantage to modified tractors include: Unique hitch heights, tire sizes limits, sled chain length, No cut or so called road worn tires. After getting all these factors included in your stock classe rules, most all modified tractors will not want to pull in this class because a correctly setup low HP tractor will be just as competitive if not beat them. You will also find some so called stock tractors that may not like theses limits either and the reason being is pretty obvious! There is a need for these slower paced classes for the so called stock type tractors. It is the most affordable and the entry level of class that all clubs and associations should have and consider if they want to be successful. When Johnny gets this class mastered he may/will want to go faster and move on up to the next class, if he finds that he does not have enough mustard or money to keep up with it he still has his old affordable class to stay in or go back to. Why would you NOT want a speed limit if you were concerned about keeping a level playing field? Pick the speed limit class that best fits you and your tractors ability and go have fun.

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Jim in OH

11-14-2006 10:54:20

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to Opinion (Long Post), 11-14-2006 09:34:50

Spot on!!!! so called "stock" classes are ridiculous.... They always favor a particular tractor... likewise for "gear" classes... I suggest (with examples in paren')

1- weight classes (about every 500 lbs), 2- speed limits (slow, medium and fast), 3- hitch height and length (low/long, mid/mid and higher/short) 4- Tire limits (sizes, cut, etc)...

Add anything else related to safety (rpms, shields, wheelie bars, etc.)... Pick these and go play...

Jim

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MJF

11-13-2006 20:27:10

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

A famall M can go from 37/8 to 4in without boring, just bigger sleeves I feel thats accepable for stock pulling. I have an M that has a 4in bore and that'll pull 2nd in the 5,55,and 6000lb classes. thats all thats done to it. it even has an all-fuel low-comp head. That had 15.5's

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deere g power

11-13-2006 16:23:04

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

This is such a loaded question. It's obvious from reading the replies. Where I pull, if you want to pull 2nd gear at 5500 lbs. you better have 90+ horsepower. That's with 16.9-38s. There's so much more to it than track conditions. How long is the chain on the sled? How high can you run your drawbar? How heavy is the sled? So in short, up here none of those tractors you listed would pull 2nd gear at any weight you could get them in with stock motors.

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B Barenie

11-13-2006 15:15:32

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Re: Power for 2nd gear/BUDD in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

Takes an honest man to bring questions to an open forum ! I think I just learned a great deal about the oliver 77-88 and a slow ring and pinion. A 70
horse oliver or john deere with a creeper gear may pull that sled out the back door with the correct track conditions and good balance, then the tractor would be pentalized, and be moved into another division, where it could not compete.
(please read early posting on the oliver).
Individuals all across america are not only paying attention to the motor, but also the drive line !
Here's something to think about that exist's in our club. How about a huge (m) with big bore and stroke and a junk low compression distilate head on top of it. Legal by the numbers, put a w6 ring and pinion behind it and that combination is just about unstoppable in first gear pulling !
In the 2005 season a modified moline did extremely well, this year, did it win anything?
If rpm's are controlled, if first gear is manditory, no cheating on this issue, a 125hp tractor ain't going to make. Track condition's change from year to year and in this area, as many tracks even more are loose than tight!
If a tractor has to be pull started, then thats a problem (compression) not money !
If the tractor is a division (1) tractor, then it should be exactly that, meaning it trully must be field worth, at least a couple of rounds in the field !
Did one big cube tractor win it all this year ?
And if all stock appearance issues were watched alittle more carefully, outcome could have been different !
Boring and stroking is not cheating, leaving loop holes is an advantage to those who read them correctly ! Final comments:
Leave the rules , first gear only
Maintain current rpm limits
Police heavlely individuals attempting second and third gear.
Non cut tires can be dressed, and that violation will go on every where, the board decides !
Police tractors using wrong cranckcases, blocks and heads, manifolds etc !
And the rest will take care of it's self !
This board will do an awesome job, sweat the details but, the visual stuff must be terminated !

If I can see it with my eye's, and hear it with my ear's, my mind perscieves a problem !

Good luck and thank you !
bud barenie

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ChadS

11-13-2006 15:49:07

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Re: Power for 2nd gear/BUDD in reply to B Barenie, 11-13-2006 15:15:32

BudB,, Dad's Stock Super M beat em in the heavy for the points. I think the moline won one class,, I told you guys that pandoras box was opened when the stroker was allowed to pull farm feild. Now, the club has a bunch of new stroker engines,,, and thought was it was all ok!!! Big surprize! Lets ask the pros,,,, hey NATPA!!! How do you guys do it??? I know how,,, they dont,,, other than a parts number check. Good guys rule applies if caught. seen it too many times in our own club.

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voager213

11-13-2006 15:11:41

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

seen a super h pull 4500 in 2nd with no moods but i think a regular h will pull in second becasue the regular h has lower gearing the the super h ??? not sure about that tho

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ChadS

11-13-2006 13:40:52

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

I cant wait to see next years rules. Tom has a point,,, that puts his DC back out to pasture if the strokers run wild in second gear. Or, open a class that segragates the higher HP tractors from the so called stock ones. That may never happen,, so, your question has validity, but, no one is gonna admit what their tractors are capable of. Only pullers that have been around a while to know what and where the tractor or tractors in question can tell you what it has been known to do. BUT, someone can stand at the end of the track or beside the scale with a large sign that says "this machine has a stroker" and still be overlooked. That rule is an unwritten rule, called the "Good ol boys rule" Chad

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Captainhookerus

11-13-2006 07:31:51

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

Bud make the class you are talking about pull with a 96 inch chain and 16 inch high drawbar. That will eliminate most of the down force. You can then maybe pull in second gear but will only pull about 60% of tractor weight.

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A.P.

11-13-2006 06:52:40

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

Yes, several of them could (4500 to 6500#) with no more than an M&W overbore kit in them, some wouldn't even need that.

As far as gears go, not all tractors have the same or even close to the same first gear speed even within the same make and model there can be large variations due to original factory options. I suggest limiting them to a gear with a top speed under a certain number (say 3mph) whether that gear is 1st, 2nd or whatever.

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BUDD

11-13-2006 06:18:41

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

Ok let me be more specific here. We pull in low gear now and will continue to do so. What I am wanting to know is can any of these tractors pull second gear with out some modifications?

BUDD

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jd b puller

11-13-2006 20:27:33

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-13-2006 06:18:41

Budd, do you let the AC"s run 38" rubber? How about changing out Ring/pinion/other gears? Used to pull out in IA and they had a 1st gear rule. So the people with the bigger HP and $$$ just modified/replaced their gears... Keep it simple, pick an RPM (10%), pick a speed (3 MPH or 3.5MPH) and stick with it. Never agreed with the weight bracket 11" from C/L of rear wheels either. Seems it should be off the front of ORIGINAL frame. Just gives the shorter tractors an advantage.

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Jak

11-13-2006 10:41:57

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-13-2006 06:18:41

Yes,a low ring gear and pinion in an Oliver Super 88 will let it pull second up to 6000 and sometimes 6500 w/o mods,I do it all the time at under 4 mph.

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B Barenie

11-13-2006 06:18:16

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

Okay !
No stroke, and no big bore !
Ahhh what would be an exceptable bore ? With sleeves or no sleeves (farmall -m) ?
Custom pistons or stock off the shelf product.
If your going to run a Division (1) class, then you will have to police cubic inch !
Every year there are huge rule changes, I'll wait until the next season and see how much more ridiculous, this can get !
Make sure you come up with specific rules, also since your at it, why not also control compression !
If your running a stock motor, 75hp will be a tough number !

Why no bore no stroke!
I'll play by those rules, but all stroker motors, or off set grind motors will be out !
No farmall m@w stroker stuff, no tractors with sleeves removed !
Also, unless the rules specify otherwise, no propane heads on any make and model !
6.5-1 compression ratio 125-135 psi cranking pressure!
Wow !
Can't think of anything else !
Please keep us posted because this is a mess !
Rite now you eliminate 6-7 tractors in farm stock
that would not comply with your rules !
You better dot th (I)'S AND CROSS THE (T)'S because this could get real hairy !

Budd be carefull !

Bud barenie

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BUDD

11-13-2006 06:22:22

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to B Barenie, 11-13-2006 06:18:16

Bud;

We would not eliminate any tractors. We would just put them in the class they belong MODIFIED

BUDD

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B-maniac

11-13-2006 15:42:15

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-13-2006 06:22:22

Just think of the additional tractors it would bring to the track,that stay home with the present state of chaos. The ones that are honest and have dead stock tractors and are sick of "donating" to the "stock tractor modification society" that now infests this class. There's quite a few of these just waiting for things to get "cleaned up" so they can come and have some fun too. Put these others in the class they truely belong in and the sport will grow. Leave it the way it is and watch it stagnate!

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Jak

11-13-2006 17:44:28

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to B-maniac, 11-13-2006 15:42:15

Here the open tractors have went back to farm tires(maybe top cuts depending the rules)and pull in superfarm.Farm is for stock appearing hitches and no weights in front of the front tires which means if some of us superfarm pullers go back down to farm we would have to redo lots of things to jump back down there.Then super farm would do to the pure farm classes what some open pullers have done to the super farm class.We seen this with div 3 and 2 in other clubs.

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Toot

11-13-2006 05:48:08

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

You need to keep it first gear if its stock tractors. Open it up to second gear - one winter someone will do something internal to modify, then it will snowball. Then stock pulling will become a money game and be ruined like the others. I know there are people that have motors that are suposed to be "stock" but the low gear keeps them in check and all can compete.

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BUDD

11-13-2006 06:33:19

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to Toot, 11-13-2006 05:48:08

TOOT What we are wanting to do is try and keep the stock class somewhat stock. Our stock class is getting out of hand on the power issue. We have guys bring there Mod tractor back into the farm class. We have looked at different ways to control this without looking into the motor and have not found a way yet. What has been talked about is if you can pull our sled in 2nd gear then you have modified your tractor. I know you can detune it for the test to kill the motor, but we have a solution for that also.

BUDD

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Flyin Farmall

11-13-2006 20:13:42

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-13-2006 06:33:19

Why don't you guiys use a dyno aftr the hook?? We have been putting them on a dyno for years,and the only complaints,are from the guys that are over.If they don't pass the dyno the are out,plain and simple!!

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JDGnut

11-13-2006 17:37:49

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-13-2006 06:33:19

A speed limit is going to be the only way... You"ll never please everyone with what ever speed you choose... One of our clubs allows 1st or 2nd gear... All is seems to do is show off the tractors with more HP.. and hurt the stock tractors.
JDGnut

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Jak

11-13-2006 10:47:07

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-13-2006 06:33:19

My Ollie is the same speed in second as my G Deere was in first.

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Jeff Oliver

11-13-2006 15:44:03

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to Jak, 11-13-2006 10:47:07

And for what it is worth here my 88 I have to pull in 1st as it will choke out most of the time as the end and Jak and I have a pretty even win loss record against each other. Howver mine has the faster gears so in 2nd I blow the whistle anyway but I like the 1st gear rule as it does make the playing field alot more even.

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dctom

11-13-2006 05:28:40

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to BUDD, 11-12-2006 18:05:33

COME ON BUDD!! YOU KNOW DARN WELL IF YOU ALLOW SECOND GEAR IN STOCK CLASS YOU WILL START THE HORSE POWER RACE ALL OVER AGAIN,AND RUIN OUR CLUB FOR SURE

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mlpankey

11-13-2006 17:23:51

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to dctom, 11-13-2006 05:28:40

whats wrong with horsepower .after all didnt tractor pulling start by someone saying i believe mine is bigger stronger more powerfull than youres .then the pull began

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B Barenie

11-13-2006 21:28:23

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to mlpankey, 11-13-2006 17:23:51

You just said a mouth full !

Well stated ! have you ever heard of a 7.5 stroker in division 1, only in Indiana, and you know what, this is one tough club !

Hookem-up !!!

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11-14-2006 00:52:14

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Re: Power for 2nd gear in reply to B Barenie, 11-13-2006 21:28:23

Who's got that?

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