The 200 hp M theory,,,

How is reving a 6 cylinder up "free horsepower?" Its only going to be able to suck so much air into it, and when it runs out of air, its done....period. When it runs out of air, it cant make any torque, and if it cant make any torque, it will fall on its face.

Im attaching a link to help explain how horsepower and torque really are related to eachother. It even has pictures, that may help you to finally get it!!

• Horsepower and torque REALLY are related!!!

On my 460 H,, I put a 6 cyl gas engine in the H rear end. we all know the 6 cyl dont run at 1815 engine rpms now do we? No, but thats what I have to go by on a pto dyno, H is rated for 1815 engine rpms at 540. You take know factors that do exist, and you can darn near get an accurate estimate of hp at the higher rpms. You can do it two ways,, Hp divided into 540, then multiplied by the new faster pto speed you want to know. In my 460H its 78 hp at 540 at 1815 engine rpms.

Here are the factors I want to know,,

I want to know how much HP my 6 cyl will make at 785 pto rpm (on the H pto)and 2640 engine rpms,, (Stock 706IH rpms)

78hp divided by 540= 0.144444 444 X 785 pto rpm = 113.38hp at 2640 engine rpms, and at 785 pto speed.

Thats just one math problem, here is another,,,,

hp divided by engine rpm X new rpm = hp at new rpm.

78 hp divided by 1815 engine rpms = .042975207 X 2640 (new) engine rpm = 113.45hp at 2640

So yes, I belive that there is a math formula to change over hp at different rpms with know factors taken from a pto dyno.

Try em both using those formulas with your known Hp at 540, or engine rpm. its donw with a calculator,, so its a calculated responce??? Chad

Just where did you come up with the idea that you can check power under 540pto but not above? Find that little slide card that converts hyd. PSI to horsepower that came with your dyno. Then take some tape and cover up all the HP numbers on the dial so you wont be tempted to look at them. Then you can pull the tractor down to ANY....yes, ANY rpm above or below the rated rpm and use your little card that you found earlier, line up the pressure and RPM and wa-la, you have your horsepower reading. Should be easier for you than the math thing to try to figure out.

The pto gear reduction has nothing to do with engine horsepower. Engine horsepower is really what you are checking, right. I mean, what turns the tires, the pto or the engine?? Now for your physics lesson for the day. Power in=power out (assuming no friction) What this means to you is that in a world with no fricion, the power coming out of the engine into the pto gear train and the power that comes out of the pto gear train into the dyno are the same. The PTO shaft is geared down from engine speed. This increases the torque available at the PTO shaft. BUT...BUT the speed at which the shaft rotates is decreased by the same rate that the torque was increased, thus resulting in equal power levels. If a D-17 pto is geared down from a WD, all that means is that the engine has to turn more RPM to turn the pto at the same speed. It may deliever more torque to the pto, but it has to turn harder to get it there.

From looking at your little horsepower and rpm conversion formula, I see you STILL dont understand how horsepower, torque and RPM are mathematically related. Here in reality, you cant find the horsepower without knowing the torque. According to your math, your 460H would make 257HP if it could turn 6000rpm and not fly apart (78/1815=.0429*6000=257.85 Remember, that's YOUR math formula). Let me assure you, your 460 doesn't have 257hp. All that power without changing the carb or anything, thats pretty magical! Guess thats what you meant when you said just rev a 6 cyl up more and its free HP. Your math assumes that your engine makes the same torque from the first instant of crankshaft rotation to infinate RPM. Again, you can rest assured that your engine does not make 225.7 ft/lbs of torque from the instant of crank rotation all the way thru the rpm range. It may make it at a certain RPM, but not from practically 0 til she blows.

Horsepower=(RPM x Torque)/5252

Torque=(Horsepower x 5252)/RPM

I didnt make these formulas up. They are available in a number of books and websites.

Here are a couple more links that maybe will help you understand it. (Copy and paste)

Link

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm

140 hp at 2050, thats 554rpm on the 17's pto,,, if 1995 is 540 for the 17.

ready for this??? Im not, cause I have to now send you 2 dollars.

Mind you, this is if you was to go thru the pto, and understand what I would see on my guage if I dynoed your tractor.

it may show, 140 hp at 554, or 2050 engine rpms
143.85 hp at 540, 1995 rpms
at 465 pto rpm or 1720 166.84 hp
at 406 pto rpm, or 1500 engine rpm,,, 191.33 hp.

I asked my self, if I checked the hp at 2050 engine rpm on a 540 dyno it would show less at the higher rpm, just like I mentioned,, lug it down lower, and the HP increases, due to increasing HYD pressure. Right? Right. So, I changed the formula to look like this to figure out from 540 and below instead of 540 and above,,,,

HP at a known rpm,,, 140 at 2050.

Take 140hp X 2050 rpms = 287000, then divide that by the lower rpm, I took it to 1995 so it looks like 143.85 hp. The rpm drop now concludes with the increasing hp from more hyd pressure it takes to lug the tractor down harder. Now thats at the 17's rpm range,, not the wd's,, Keep on dropping the engine rpms, and figure out what the pto speed would actually be, and thats what it would be at the low side of the rpm using a pto dyno. So, congratulations,, if you wanted to go by the 1500 engine rpm estimate,, or 406 pto rpm, you now have the first 191 hp AC 4 cyl engine. According to a pto dyno. But at 540 inthe 17, its 143+. it wont be as high in the wd chassis due to different rpm,,

Also, on a 540 and below pto dyno, I consider the peak hp reading at the lowest rpm till the hp drops off, is what I call a torque curve. It can show you how much more pull or torque out have put into your engine. At some point the rpms will eventually overcome the setup and drop like a stone,, but if you get over 25 hp on the torque curve below the 540 reading, you got an engine that has a really long torque curve in the basement rpms. Its not dyno spiking,,, what I usually do is drop it to 440 pto rpm, that way its a baseline limit, so I dont get tempted to do anything below that. From 540 to 440 is the area rpm I focus on to get more out of it. The math compared to actual dyno numbers is within a margin of error so it can be quite accurate.

As for if I ever dyno anything bigger that needs a 1000 pto? No, biggest Ive ever had on the dyno was a G moline, and the smallest was a Super C IH,,,

I would love to try to use the direct drive off my dyno,, I would have to build a stand etc etc,, but till then I back the ol mule up and twist its tail. its what the customer, or I have to work with at this time. So, if you can understand what Ive said, and Ive learned from what you have all said, (except for the Real puller)

One last note,, any stock tractor that Ive ever tuned or checked on a pto dyno, Ive had to turn the rpms up just to get to 540, so no, they did not over rev them from the factory, remember, they were afraid of em back then flying apart, so they played it safe. it was all based off of rated rpm, but I dyno them from above the 540 and pull it down to the 540 rpm. the carb is open more, its woke up and more ready to pull it down, instead of going up to the mark and pulling down from there,,, I find more low end power that way. So, how would you like your payment??? ChadS

You want me to explain how this 140HP isnt the same as going thru the pto? You must not be listening, because 140 engine horsepower, minus frictional losses, IS 140 HP at the PTO. When you figure out that there is something other than checking at rated RPM and that it is possble to check at any RPM accuratly, you MIGHT be able to figure this out.

I am running out of ideas on how to explain this to you so it makes sense. Im trying hard to be nice here, but its not fair to people to get misinformation because you dont want to undestand math and science. When you take your blinders off and see the real world or quit spreading misinformation, then I will quit preaching to you.

I have a stack of Hot Rod magazines 2 feet thick, and everyone of em has some sort of article of an engine build up,, more power!! More power!! read all about it. They take the engine out of a SS Chevelle, or a Hemi Mopar, and they put on the engine dyno,, and they tune it, dial it all in, record the numbers for the highest readings, and that becomes public knowledge,, or bragging rights,,, Right?

Then the owner of said machines, put that engine in a car, truck or whatever,, then, they decide to put the whole car on a chassis dyno, to test power at the rear wheels..... ...

Well, Im a fan of the powerblock shows on Spike TV,,, and I see that show called HP TV,,, They have one of these chassis dyno testers. Ive heard that guy say time and time again, the engine would be alot stronger in HP results, if it was not going thru the drivetrain. So, does that mean that there is not said HP going thru the wheels???? Not thru the wheels,, no, at the crank yes,,, and the beaty of that statment, is that they choose the rpm varying ranges,,, not set by a governor.

You asked me if the engine made 140 hp atthe crank, is it present at the pto, or wheels,,, Yes, and NO. The yes part of the argument is,, at 2050 rpm the engine made 140+ hp. But, what is it at rated tractor rpms?? 1720 rpm is for a wd, and 1995 is for the 17. No question in my mind, at 2050 engine rpms, turn on the pto,, at 643 pto rpms, it would be 140 hp, if a pto dyno would show that without the card conversions. No Tractor dyno will let you do that, without the card sheet conversion,,,, So here comes the NO part of the argument,,,,,

Tractor chassis are set for a specific rpm range for 540 pto speed. Unless, you regear the pto to run slower,, you cant get away from 540 and the set engine rpm. Since we are talking about a Pulling TRACTOR,, the stock chassis had a pto at some time in its life. So a 540 reading, sometimes is all we have to go by, and the proof of that is, whats available,,, tractor dyno's are bout on every street corner repair shop, so,,, back it up and hook on.

Reguardless of what the engine dyno says,, the pto dyno is going to tell the story of what it is in tractor terms. The pto dyno, in my opinion works in opposite of what an engine dyno works. One, the pto dyno reads hp higher as rpm drop, anything above 540 is irrelivant in tractor terms
becuase without the cheat sheet conversion to read higher rpm ranges. The pto dyno does not read it. 540 is where the tractor dyno test is read at. Two,,, the tractor dyno, does not care what the HP is at 2050, its not capale of reading that rpm,, unless thats what the engine rpm is at 540. , but it will be a lesser reading,, the 540 hp reading will always be higher that 550, 600, 675. 540 and below, the HP numbers go up higher than what it would read at 675 or what ever 2050 was,,,, So, according to the pto dyno,,, the lower the rpm, the stronger the engine. What do I know, using tractor terms?? Simple, I took real world knowledge,, 140 hp at 2050, and converted it to if was read at 1720. I told you already what I belived it would be,, only thing i did was slow that engine rpm down to real tractor terms. 117.46 hp at 1720 or 540. If it was 140 hp at 2050, the pto dyno will be a lower reading everytime. its not that the 140hp is not present,, but its not present at stock rpm,, at least according to a tractor dyno. its there when it hits 2050,, but not at 1720. Thats just the way it is in the tractor terms. Thats all Im saying.

I appreciate the time and effort your doing to help me understand what your talking about. Trust me, I know what your saying, but, understand,, even though we do what we do to tune the engine, as far as what to do is the same, the two dyno's will read differently everytime. its something your gonna have to trust me on,,,,, , if you want proof of my theory,,, if anyone has an engine dyno setup to dyno a IH H,, Ill be more than happy to bring my engine to a engine dyno cell,, read HP at 1815, and what ever rpm range im allowed to run,, or what ever rpm range the best HP was made at. then, we will put the engine in the chassis, and run a pto dyno tractor terms test. I promise you, if the Best HP was made at a higher rpm other than my rated rpms,, it will show less everytime if its pulled down to 540.

See, its more of a trick to keep tractor builders honest, because we can check the work,,, we do say you get x amount of HP at 540,,, and trust me, they check em,,, using that pto can keep em all in a line,,,,
Using the other dyno,, even though its not a tractor terms hp test,, its a way to break away from the pto hp estimates given by quote, or promise,, but if the buyer was smart,, thed ask for the HP to be checked at tractor rated speeds. or simply state,, they dyno the engine by itself and go by that. its the customers choice at that point,,, but we keep it the old fashoined way,, keep it real, keep it tractor,, keep it honest.

Its up to the builders discretion on how they report their HP, and if they know there is a difference in the readings,, they should report it. LW done just that when he dynoed project M,,, he said his water brake dyno will be different from a HYD fluid dyno.

I have no problems with any technology that follows engine only dyno tuning,, but when they try to pass it off as tractor hp,, its not even tractor related.

I know, Ive said this over and over,,, and over,,, but, there is a difference. Now, if you want to explain the differences, pick an engine and go with it,, I have a H I love to show the pto dyno and the engine dyno difference. Id like to know what peak hp I can really get at 2500rpm out of it.
How do I do that, and is 150 hp possible out of a H?? Ive seen 130 on a pto dyno from that H,,, sooo,, what would it be at 2500? Then, my bragging rights shoot up even higher.

Hope I did not tick you off here,, its a trick all us farmers/tractor mechanics use to keep the big money builders in an honest hp quote. Trust me, your not the only one Ive showed this to,,, my machinist buddy did not know either till I showed him. Hope to get into some good discussions on this new tech,,,, Im just old fashioned, but a younger fella. Chad

Ih 460 with a 221 is what,, 50 hp at 540? what is that,,, 1900 rpm?

Take that same exact motor, throw it into a truck and rev it up to 3600. Which is exactly what IH did, used the same engine in trucks and tractors,, and got 137 hp at 3600 rpms. Out of the same 221ci engine.

Tell me again how that theory dont work???

if it can be fed it will make power.

I belive you on how you tune it with an O2 sensor,, shoot it takes all the fun out of pulling all the plugs out to check em for color!LOL!! Do you measure exhaust temp as well?

The heavy flywheel is meant for a stock engine setup,,, I never said the lite ones dont work on modifieds,, they work better when your lugging the crap out of a stock engine. its more meant for lower than low rpms to keep momentum going. If it was meant to give momentum, running a baler, or run the hyd pump,,, why wouldnt the same theroy work on a pulling track? if an engine, is to its point of dying,, and a few extra pounds of momentum keeps it going for a few more seconds,, that can be the difference between 1st or second place when its lugged down to its knees. Now balance of the flywheel would smooth it out, add weight and balance it would be even better in my opinion. Seen a G JD once, put 2 flywheels welded together,,,,, he idled that thing down, and made the most hook em up beat your pants off, take your money pull you have ever seen. And all it did was keep the engine running at a lower rpm from the extra momentum. I thought it would die, but the flywheel would go around and go again. Never seen anything like it. He used the low end torque created from momentum,, I guess you called it free,, cause the engine did not do the job, it had a helper,,,,, maybe it dont make sence,,, but Ive seen it in action. Is momentum considered torque?? when thats what momentum is creating? Chad