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armstrong vs bfg's

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460/560

02-26-2007 08:08:38

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Anyone got some good or bad things to say about 18.4-34 bfg power grips or 18.4-34 Armstrong HI- Power Lugs. Both are cuts.

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Mike Aylward

03-01-2007 14:49:37

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-26-2007 08:08:38

I"ll go ahead and give my two cents here. Unless you are trying to squeeze out the last few pounds I believe you would be happier with the BFG tires. The Armstrong tire is a light tire but it is also a very soft tire. It also has fewer bars per tire. While they can work in certain conditions the BFG will work in more of these conditions and do so with more consistency. Mike

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460/560

02-27-2007 06:31:23

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-26-2007 08:08:38

I am having a hard time deciding. I"ve seen the bfg"s hook up consistently. Have have pulled the armstrongs once on by tractor and they hooked up well to. Do either of you know which ones would be lighter (bare casings)?

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High Octane

02-27-2007 07:57:34

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-27-2007 06:31:23

What was the biggest HP you ever seen out of the IH 6 cyl gasser?

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460/560

02-27-2007 10:22:54

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 02-27-2007 07:57:34

I know a guy that was getting about 1000 hp out of a 301. He was running twin turbos and about 5500 rpms. I'm not sure if he was running it on alchol or not. He was basically using the stock bottom end, or so he says.

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High Octane

02-27-2007 15:46:37

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-27-2007 10:22:54

That would be awesome to see. I remember seeing Rick Ross with a 560 called the Moonshiner years back that was turbo charged and alky burning,,, it would scoot right along!! Do you think that 300hp is out of the question naturally aspirated and 5500 rpm? I have a C-301, with electronic fuel injection, injecting alcohol thru the injection system, Big cam, etc etc?? The injection system is quite a feature,,,,

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460/560

02-28-2007 05:36:30

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 02-27-2007 15:46:37

A stock 301 will dyno about 200hp at about 5500-6000 rpm, it just won't have any guts behind it because it's just top end. I'm sure you could achieve 300 hp. The trick will be maintaining that figure at the far end of the track.

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High Octane

02-28-2007 07:46:00

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-28-2007 05:36:30

Looking to run a 4000-5000 lb 4 mph, up to 12 mph. 15.5X38 tires, Im gonna try to literally roast the 15.5's off the rim!! when I turn it loose. Was the 200 hp 301 on pump gas? Thanks!

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460/560

03-01-2007 06:39:57

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 02-28-2007 07:46:00

I would say so. It was a real budget project. Have you seen any 460"s with the rd series engines. They were 200 flywheel hp from the factory.

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High Octane

03-01-2007 06:56:08

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-01-2007 06:39:57

Yes. Have seen a few RD450's in a few 460's The front motor mount can be trouble. On the 450RD swap, your still looking at a flywheel modification of some form. Some are safe, some not so safe. Im weight conscience on this tractor, the front end on the 460 are so heavy in the first place, the RD engine makes it harder to run lighter classes than a C series block. I got my front axle weighing 1140#'s with no weights, so it wont take much weight for a counter balance. Im still looking to get rid of the 460 flywheel and get a high rpm unit. I am wondering if any truck flywheels would swap out in some form.

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460/560

03-02-2007 09:57:39

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-01-2007 06:56:08

I have a 450 mounted in a 560. I used the front motor mount from the truck and modefied it to mount in the tractor. It worked pretty well. I had a spacer machined for the flywheel and had it balanced. I didn't use the original front end. I built a light weight wide front, which helps with the longer motor so theres more room without making the wheelbase longer. Tractor is not done yet. Im still trying to tie up all the loose ends. I think it will all work though. Motor is bored to 4.5" and used taller pistons for more comp.

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High Octane

03-02-2007 17:23:25

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-02-2007 09:57:39

That will be a wicked machine, even at stock rpms. Ive seen RD"s in the 700-800 ci range,,, They can make alot of torque. Have you mocked up the hood,, etc,, etc,,, yet on your 560? Next time I do this, I have a junker 826 with a german diesil Id like to put into a H or a M rear end sometime. Loose ends, are the most fun to make work in the long run. 4 years of building this tractor, and I still have alot to figure out,,, mostly electrical, and some sort of roll cage.

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460/560

03-03-2007 15:51:33

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-02-2007 17:23:25

I haven"t got that far yet. Building a new trans/rearend cover and putting on disc brakes right now. I"ve seen a couple 460s and 560s with 466s. I"d really like to do that some day. Its getting to be pretty popular. Its really cheap too!

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High Octane

03-04-2007 14:43:31

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-03-2007 15:51:33

460/560, I really appreciate you taking the time to converse on our tractor projects! I know a 414-436 will bolt into a 560 with a little help, we put a 414 in a 856 once,,,, had to use some parts from a HYDRO tractor to make the clutch and flywheel hook up without getting drasitc on design. If I can make a recommondation on the steering set up,,, look to the hydrostaic setups used on the 706-up to??? You can run no steering linkage from the steering wheel to the front axle,, just hoses. You can then use a FORD or whatever your pleasure is,,on a power steering pump, a cyl from a combine to act as the rack, and its all set up!! Saved a bunch of weight and ease with the steering. POWER STEERING!! Combines have the best selection on those setups,,, I had my 460 out today,,,,, put on the big 715 combine carb all tuned up and WOW what a difference it made VS the stock, older IH carb! Night and day difference! Im sure, its no secret bout that carb, I never had a chance to try one out till this week.

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460/560

03-05-2007 06:39:19

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-04-2007 14:43:31

I've already got a non-powersteering rack and pinion off a little car mounted on my front end. I think the whole setup will be pretty light, I'm not sure how well it will turn though. I will keep what you said in mind because I am thinking about building a front end for my 460. I've never thought about that kind of setup. I know some guys use powersteering racks and run a power steering pump, but they still have to run all the steering linkage from front to back. Does your 460 still have the 221? I bet that bigger carb made a big differece. I got a 301 from a 715 in my 460. It runs real well. I drilled out the jet a little and honed the #35 venturi out a little more. I can get plenty of fuel to it now. What tractor and types of classes do you pull mostly? I pull modefied antique classes in western IN and Ill.

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High Octane

03-05-2007 08:43:48

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-05-2007 06:39:19

Im running a C263 for now,,, out of a late 403 combine. Same as a 706, but no sleeves. Ive milled the head, ported the exhaust and manifold, left the intakes alone. Oh yeah,, the carb made a difference,,,, Where before, I could ride the brakes and lug the engine,, now I simply fry the brakes off and the rpm seems to hold stronger. On the power steering,,, A late 403 combine will have the hydro steering,,, 715 will too, but they seem to ask for more money at the junkyards for 715 parts VS 403 parts. Grab the steering column, there is a hyd unit right under the cab,,, and then grab the cyl from the axle. Route the lines, mount the steering wheel pump, and the hyd valve somehwere,,, the auto power steering pump runs it just fine!!! If you have gutted the steering column on the 560-460, should not be hard to mount the steering in a new bracket. Im thinking of removing the wide front I built on my 460, and building a narrow front with the same hyd setup to operate it,,,, I like the look of the narrow front,,, and drop it down to give it some rake and it looks tough as nails!! It would also be easier to transport,,, more room to put a second tractor on the trailer and not have the front end in the way. The whole wide front on it weighs like 150 lbs with tires and rims,,,, but it mounted solid,,, no tilt in the center, but can be easily added. I do like the wide front, but the terrain I run into,, it can twist the frame rails if Im not careful the way it is. We have 4 H"s, 1 m, 1 SM, a few deeres, and a moline to make some color in the shed. The club I run with stops at 57 and will not think of opening up to 58 just because of the 460-660 tractors coming to pull. Seems like our club is always looking for ways to improve attendance,,, I belive, that we already have bout every pre 1957 tractor in the area that wants to pull with us,,, but the numbers diminish over the years and dont seem to be gaining many more back. I took my 460 to a big pull last year to run some exhibition runs,, and they said no way,,,, so it sat up by the starting line and intimidated the heck out of everybody!! WAIT!!!I did get to pull it that day,,,, A JD A died in the pits and I got to pull start it with my farmall. LOL!! The crowd loved it, many came up and asked questions bout my 460,,, All I could say that day was it was a trailer queen for a day. On a personal note,, I was inspired to build the 460, after seeing a few 460-560"s out of Ill,,, I loved what I seen, and I know they can whoop on an Oliver. I learned that the 460 had sold, and he had built a pro stock 966. Years back, I always seen him in the HOOK, "KING OF THE HILL" with a 460. Do you know em?? Im in Northern Indiana,, that should be a good hint. Right? Ill leave it at that for now. I may never get as good as those guys are,, but its fun to play with a faster machine than an old M or H.

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460/560

03-06-2007 06:43:05

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-05-2007 08:43:48

I"ll have to look into the steering setup. I own a 715.(301 donor for my 460) I have to agree with you, the narrow front ends do look alot better. I"ve seen some guys use a narrow front end out of a smaller massey,(maybe a 30 or something like that). Its much ligher than the IH hunk of cast. There are some nice 460s and 560s in Ill. I like pulling over there because they are usually pretty easy on rules and stuff. It seems like the farther north you get, the less fun you have because everyone wants to make a bunch of rules. I"m about to the point were i dont even pull at the local fairs and stuff because it run by a bunch of local morons who don"t like to see some people win. I try to tell them that theyd make more money off attendance if they"d try to bring in some real tractors, but they"ve all got semi puller fever. The only hot stuff they want to see is stuff that blows black smoke(thats one good reason to put 466 in a 560, then see what they"ll say!) They tend to want to use the 53 and older rule, but they finaly changed that. Seems like a guy needs to shoot for 2nd everytime if he wants to pull the next time around! LOL

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High Octane

03-06-2007 13:12:19

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-06-2007 06:43:05

Im looking into a hyd servo motor,,, ever see a hyd drive motor off of a feed truck? The motor runs the floor augers, vertical augers, etc etc. Just a rotary hyd motor,,, that can turn in both directions, (Right n left) and still keep my hydro steering, but eliminate the cyl and use the rotary motor instead. Then build a lite bolster with the narrow front attached,,,, then hook the servo right up to the top of the shaft that will turn the front end. It sounds more complicated than it really is. Im more used to a narrow front tractor, VS a wide front,,, Where the pivot point on a wide front can throw off the direction from landing on the ground wrong, break a spindle etc etc,,,

Thats kinda what Im faced with on local clubs and rules, and an "open" tractor, that does meet the rules of the club, but the year break is what holds it back. They just wont evolve to accept new tractors into a club that needs something to jolt it into a direction to help keep membership growing. Thats why alot of OUTLAW brush pulls are popping up everywhere to allow these types of tractors. its a bit more laxed for rules, but it sure looks like fun to me!!

What happens,, when you shoot for second place,, and you overshoot your goal and land up first???

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460/560

03-07-2007 05:51:28

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-06-2007 13:12:19

What happens? Your then labeled as a no good cheater because you use a "combine"engine, you got five people with tapemeasures lined up at your hitch, your running to many rpm's, and your paints shinnier than everyone else, so you shouldn't be allowed. The rpm thing really makes me mad because they have no way to check it. If your going to complain about rpms, have a tool to check it, otherwise shut up about it!Its just because the local pulls are run by a bunch of local farmers who never get out and watch a real tractor pull or really good tractors. When you tell them you got a 301 combine engine, they don't realize that its not cheating and that all the major pulling associations allow it.----I just brought home a trailer loaded up with three 466's. Ones basically complete,ones crankless, the others just a block. I got a couple extra heads and the guy said to bring the trailer back for more later. I've got visions of a 460 running about 18 mph carrying the front end a foot off the ground and rollin the black smoke. Sounds good to me!

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High Octane

03-07-2007 09:31:02

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-07-2007 05:51:28

LOL! You've been there done that havent you??? What they dont realize, is that when a person builds a PULLING tractor, strictly for pulling only,, Nothing is stock anymore!! I dont care if its an engine, or a weight bracket, its still a modification to compete. I like an open speed limit, but I enjoy a speed limit too, but I still wanna run it at 5000+rpm. Not that the rules cant let me do it,, its because I want to do so. We need a club around here that offers an open class for tractors like we describe. Just remember,,, its not the tractor that is outlawed,, its the crazy SOB thats piloting the beast that knows how to make it run down the track is what other pullers hate. HAHAHA!!! Tractors dont drive themselves,, we gotta aim em towards the finish line.

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460/560

03-08-2007 05:37:49

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-07-2007 09:31:02

I think if you'd paint it green, they wouldn't care how far you pulled! Like i said, i'm about to the point where i won't even take my 460 because it seems like every rule they have takes away from its strengths. I can't wait to get my 560 w/ the 450 running. They'll probably only let me pull it once, put it will still be sweet. No one will come close to it! (Or at least they shouldn't LOL)I'd really like to go to some of these "open" pulls" and watch. That would be entertaining! My 460 probably aint got enough guts to pull with them guys, but my 560 should. I think that would be a blast!

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High Octane

03-08-2007 07:03:07

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-08-2007 05:37:49

Thats why I have a JD green farmall M!!! Oh yeah! that 560 will have some power going on! Ive seen a few RD's in action,,, quite impressive. If they have a rule that says you can use engines that are the same manufacturer, the RD is safe in the frame rails. USAP lets them run in em. If your ever looking for a diesel engine, Ive got a german diesel out of a 826 that needs a crankshaft, or it has a broken piston. but the rest of it is in really good shape. What was those,,, 100 hp to start with, naturally aspirated? I thought of putting it in a M,,,, dress it up as a 560,,,

Having fun is supposed to be the name of the game,, some, take it more serious than others,, they dont like to be shown up, and can get quite upset,, Ive seen fights almost break out in front of a crowd many times,,, I dont like that kind of environment,,,, but we beat em anyways,, HAHAHAHA!! When they get that uspet, its no fun for anyone,,, Ive also went to pulls where they have had board meetings right after we hooked and took the lead and throw us out for some dumb reason. That was before the class was even over with!! So yeah, I know what you mean for sure. Find a place that knows what pulling is all about and you will find a place for your machines. Thats why im a fan of USAP. its not a run what you brung type class,,,, nooo,,,, but the modifications we do are more welcome than say,,,,the other club.

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460/560

03-08-2007 11:00:06

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-08-2007 07:03:07

Ya, I"m a USAP fan to. Just seems like most of there pulls are so far away from where i live. I usually go down to Princeton on Friday and practice all day and then go home. Thats the best pullin, not having to worry about what everyone else is doing. Just give em 5 bucks and compete against yourself. I think I"ll be trying to go to some USAP"s this summer with my 560 if it turns out alright. Is the NATPA as generous on those type of modifications? Seems like they"re more strict, but I also hear alot about some of those 460"s and 560"s that pull NATPA points having diesel motors converted to gas, billet heads and all sorts of exotic things. Speaking of exotic things, you ought to put your German diesel in an H, that"d be a real sleeper. Keep H sheetmetal and run a muffler on it! You"d get some funny looks with that one! Hey, have you ever seen or tried to put a six cylinder HEI (or other electronic dist.) on a 460. I know people have done it and i"d really like to do it. Any ideas? I know about the petronix kit, but i figure i can find a dist. at a junkyard for about $15 and save alot, plus it"d look good.

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High Octane

03-08-2007 13:39:27

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-08-2007 11:00:06

Yeah, Ive heard of HEI cut off distributors. Never seen one,, but it cant be hard to do. If you cut off the bottom of the distributor base and shorten it up to the length you need, and make a collar of somesort to fit the IH engine. The pump drive is slotted so the shaft is no problem to make. Ill dig out a 6 cyl dizzy I have and look at it a little closer. I think a 6 cyl mopar (dodge) might be easier to adapt,,,,, but you have to have all that electronic equipment that goes with it. That diesel engine is too heavy for the H,, bou the time it picks the nose up off the ground it would twist the torque tube from the weight. M would hold it better, and look a bit more stock in the rails. I think div 5 these days are pretty laxed on what engines you can run,,,, havent been to a NATPA pull since 98 or 99,,, so I dont really know for sure. One time I spent like 90 bucks on practice fees on the Friday practice session,,, we had 4 tractors there,, and we just kept running till the shut down for the night. Its great for rasing funds for the club and I support that more than anything. We put 3 of those same tractors in the top 3 on the Saturday session. Had a ball!!! I agree,,, when I go pulling, I really try not to get distracted by others,, I watch em, yeah,,, but tuned into my tractor more than anything. always drawed the last number in the class, or late in the class,, I had better luck that way.

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460/560

03-09-2007 06:14:32

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-08-2007 13:39:27

You might be right about the weight, but it would still be a nice conversation piece. I think two years ago i made about 25 hooks with my 460 at the practice pull down at Princeton. Its alot of fun. I've heard that the Dodge slant sixes used a dist that might work. Is all the electronics within the cap like an HEI or is some of it seperate more like a ford?

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High octane

03-09-2007 07:17:35

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-09-2007 06:14:32

It has an electronic pick up in the distributor, but, just like the ford duraspark, has to have the box to go with it. I know a fella out in PA that has a M farmall with a DT466 dressed up like a 706. Said it was over 350 hp and can pull the sled bout 25 mph. I think an alcohol class should be made, just like the pros do,,,, cheap HP for a gas engine. Back on the distributor,,, it depends on how many rpms you intend on running,,, You can use the stock IH dizzy up to 3500 rpm, you can go a step further and add a MSD to get twice the spark any HEI puts out. You can still use the points as a trigger, if the MSD ever goes out, hook up the condensor again and be able to still run. Another canidate is the truck distributors (IH) they have a vacuum advance and rated for 3500 rpm+ it dont look the same as an ag dizzy. totally different degree in the mechanical advance, and you can run a more retarded timing base setting, and the vacuum advance will help it run better at the lower rpms.

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460/560

03-09-2007 09:48:18

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High octane, 03-09-2007 07:17:35

I was thinking about running an hei with the msd. Now is the dodge and ford's box about like a lower output msd, or is it simply an oversized ignition module like the hei's use? I just like the idea of having the trigger setup as opposed to the points. The triggers just so reliable.

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460/560

03-09-2007 09:47:33

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High octane, 03-09-2007 07:17:35

I was thinking about running an hie with the msd. Now is the dodge and ford's box about like a lower output msd, or is it simply an oversized ignition module like the hei's use? I just like the idea of having the trigger setup as opposed to the points. The triggers just so reliable.

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High Octane

03-09-2007 10:51:44

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-09-2007 09:47:33

Yeah, but when you go to put the MSD on the HEI it has the tendancy to burn up the modules and the coil wiring in the cap. I had a drag car that I decided t run an accell coil, the coil was so hot in output it burned the whole distributors electronics up in smoke. Did not last 5 minutes. The Ford is a mulitple spark, like the MSD, its a bit less on the output, but still works fine, the Dodge, I think, it needs the box to reroute the current out of the distributor, run the ignition and runs the coil. Im not sure if its a multiple spark output, but its a hot SOB at the plugs. If I had my choice, it would be a Ford dizzy,, its a pretty simple distributor, alot of meat on the bottom to machine a fiting to adapt to th IH block. Another reason would be to have the later model distributor, and hook a computer up to it. Ford computers can run the timing really well and not need all the parts to operate. You can eliminate the injector harness, rig a thottle position sensor to determine throttle position, a map sensor so the computer can determine engine load by reading vacuum pressure, A temp sensor to help cold starts, (for start up timing) it sounds difficult,,,, but its no harder than hooking up a stereo in a car. A system like this, can be rule freindly if they have an enhanced electrical systems allowed clause inthe rules. The Ford computers also have a built in MSD, and its a hot spark!!! I built a harness for a 69 ford to put in a EFI 5.0 out of a 88 t-bird. Im sure I can do the same but use the 6 cyl parts instead of a V8,,,,, its probably a year or so out for me to have a totally fuel injected engine in my IH using Ford componets. Ive already built the fuel rail to fit the C series 6 cyls,,,, just have to take the time to build a 6 cyl computer harness. The injectors will run off the ford Dizzy as the trigger, and from 6 cyl to 6 cyl,,, it can work.

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460/560

03-12-2007 06:35:25

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to High Octane, 03-09-2007 10:51:44

Would the injectors be put on the intake manifold? Would you have to run a throttle body also? I know very little about all that computer stuff. About a year ago i rebuilt the motor in my 86 chevy and i put in an older hei just to avoid using the computer stuff. Probably not the best idea, but those wires can overwhelm me quick! I know a guy that just took a fuel injection system off his moline. I don't know how it was setup, i haven't seen it yet. I'd like to take a good look at it though. I always thought it would be cool to use fuel injection. It'd probably run better to.

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High Octane

03-14-2007 19:54:31

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-12-2007 06:35:25

Yep, port injected. the manifold has the bosses casted in there already! Drilled 3 holes for the injectors and built from there. It will run off a MSD igntion box, and is metered by fuel pressure. MSD for the Injection, MSD for the timing,,, alomost like the real thing! But without all the fancy gismos and gadgets. Fuel injection in its basic form. The system I made can feed 500hp easily at 40psi of fuel pressure. I run it now off a toggle switch,,, simply on when I hit a certain RPM range,,, switches over to alcohol and then back to gasoline to idle around. Carb can be used as the throttle body.

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460/560

03-07-2007 05:52:58

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 03-07-2007 05:51:28

one thing i forgot, i'd like to know when some of those outlaw pulls in northern indiana are. I'd like to watch some of them.

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algar

02-26-2007 11:39:39

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-26-2007 08:08:38

There was a 560 by us that did not have the hp some of us did but he had 18.4-38 armstrongs and he could stay right with the tractors that werepulling 3rd and 4th gear while he was in first with the torque back.[although we always had to watch his weight and drawbar height LOL]

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XXX

02-26-2007 08:42:16

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-26-2007 08:08:38

If they were any good would they be for sale?

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460/560

02-26-2007 09:54:27

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to XXX, 02-26-2007 08:42:16

I now they are both good. I"ve seen both of them hook up really well. They are both FOR SALE for the same price. One guy wants 38"s, the other can"t pull 18.4. Thank you for your wonderful reply!

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Ned Flanders

02-26-2007 13:56:07

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Re: armstrong vs bfg's in reply to 460/560, 02-26-2007 09:54:27

Both are excellent tires. If I were in your situation I'd probably have to buy both because I couldn't decide. With the right cut I like both better than Firestone.

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