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PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement

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1958johndeere620

03-21-2008 17:17:24

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Our local club had a suprise vote on our dyno rule. The people at the meeting voted out the dyno as a way to enforce our stock tractor pulls. Don't most clubs limiting tractors at stock levels have a dyno in the rule book? How can a stock rule be enforced with out this tool?

Lets hear about your thoughts and club rules..

Thanks for input!

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james rumph

03-23-2008 17:06:20

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Sorry guys i don't know why my posting went up 7 times! This website is very slow tonight .

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james rumph

03-23-2008 17:02:14

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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james rumph

03-23-2008 17:02:12

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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james rumph

03-23-2008 17:00:29

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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james rumph

03-23-2008 17:00:40

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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james rumph

03-23-2008 16:58:41

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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james rumph

03-23-2008 16:58:38

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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james rumph

03-23-2008 16:58:06

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I'm all about keeping it fair , but don't you see more powerouts or tires breaking ground due to the slower speeds 2.5 - 3.0 mph .

We were debating this topic here to day at dinner and this point was brought up. Is 2.5 to slow ?

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joecool

03-23-2008 16:36:30

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

how do you test a tractor without a pto? dads 37 case cc doesn't have a pto, his 48 case la doesn't either. both came factory that way. hard to dyno, we tried.

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High Octane

03-23-2008 15:39:59

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Get yourself a compression guage, and set a limit of cyl pressure on stock engine classes. If its stock,, most will be way under 150psi, and there are exceptions too,,, like LP engines,,, only way to run the high cyl pressures is to have an LP tractor,,,if its a gasser, its out,,, just my 5 dollars worth,,, (inflation ya know)

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HossinMe

03-23-2008 15:25:20

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Want another {surprise?} A bunch of us{and I mean alot} may start another club if this one cant clean up its act.Only 5or6 people are causing these problems! Later Hoss

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Mopower

03-23-2008 10:34:28

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Our farm stock class allows you any speed up to 75ft from the starting point, then one beep over 2.5 mph disqualifies you. This serves as our dyno. Go ahead, try high gear, I dare ya! There is no racing at the end and since no one will risk one disqualifying beep. Tractors are required to only use parts from the factory book. Not many will attempt to build huge power inside a tractor with stock cast wheels and uncut stock size tires with normal hitches, intakes, etc. If they do, it doesn't help them. I know, I beat big h.p. with a moderately powered machine in other classes.

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Terry B

03-23-2008 11:08:16

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to Mopower, 03-23-2008 10:34:28

Thank you ethan, my point exactly.This seems to be working very well in my opinion.

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Mopower

03-25-2008 15:45:35

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to Terry B, 03-23-2008 11:08:16

yer welcome. a dyno may create new cans of worms not yet though of. burns a bit more of that expensive liquid gold too. haha.

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pullerboy88

03-23-2008 09:44:10

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

The club i pull with you can beep up to the 75 foot mark after that you get DQD and that levels the playing feild with the big hp tractors at 3 mph

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james rumph

03-23-2008 04:52:23

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I"ll buy the mph limit but tires i don"t because differnt clubs have differnt views.

I run uncut 16.9-38 field and road tires on my Super M. Per Carliton farm supply [ I.H dealer for 60 years] this tire size is a direct "factory" replacement size.

But if you pull with some clubs here they are 1 size to big !!!!! !

How do we get everyone on the same page? There is nothing wrong with having and useing the dyno if the people useing it do it correctly.

I went as far as haveing mine calibrated and certified and supply a current calibration sheet with every tractor that is dynoed .

Even if it"s just used on the winners the fact that it will be used keeps everyone playing nice .

There was a statement made back in this topic that a club outlawed MSD "why" ?

It does not in anyway make HP , it prevents spark from being put out under operating RPM due to compression .FACT

All it does is clean up the burn of fuel .

People make rules based on emotion not fact lets all get on the same page .

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slowsmoke

03-23-2008 09:52:13

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to james rumph, 03-23-2008 04:52:23

James, The MSd doesn't make HP, but it can hide it. We had a guy with MSD, and a switch on the dash. it was set up to retard timing about 15 deg.s, enough to hide about 15hp from the dyno.(normal while pulling, retard while dyno's). I thaught it was a good idea, must be why they made it illegal!!!

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1958johndeere620

03-23-2008 08:29:14

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to james rumph, 03-23-2008 04:52:23

Exactly James,
Both of my tractors have been on the dyno and guess what, they both passed. People should not be scared of the thing. I want a sport where as long as my tractor runs fine I have the same chance as the guy who spends a mint on his engine. We have a second gear rule as well as a 3.5 mph rule. My 620 is rated at 2.5 mph in second gear at rated rpm's. I have at times run out of power and If another identical tractor has 5 or 10 more horsepower then he won't run out. How is not having more power an advantage. On my farmall 300 I have to T/A down to the low side of second gear about 3/4 track. If the next guy has 5 of 10 horsepower he won't have to. How is that not an advantage. On my dads oliver 60 we have to pull in first gear. What about the guy with more hp. He can pull in second. How is that not an advantage. Horspower gives the ability to keep momentum. Nobody can ever tell me momentum is not an advantage. By the way it was a suprise vote because that item was not on the agenda for the meeting.

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james rumph

03-23-2008 09:21:34

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-23-2008 08:29:14

It's funny how "stock" tractors with out TAs can pull in 2nd and 3rd gear !!! On the GPS my super m runs at 3.1 mph in first gear and doesn't pull well in second !!

I have the dyno and know how to tune to it ,and i'm making to much power for stock class.

I know the horse power, torque and at what rpm the cam runs out , and can't pull in second .

I run very nice equipment and have spent alot of time making it perfect. The cam in my Super M is the one that came in it 60 years age and it has the stock stroke and bore.

So based on what i have read here some of the people wanting to do away with the use of a dyno are the ones that can't go on it for stock pulling.

I can get away in stock with mine if there is no dyno and be with in all the rules and i make real good power with a torqe # that is real nice.

So why the debate if you have nothing to hide..

This has been a good topic that i have been debating starting my self.

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jd b puller

03-22-2008 22:44:32

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to LW, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Terry, was that with the 28" tires that it came with or did it have 38's on it?

Another way to HELP control the HP in the lower classes that I don't think ANYBODY does... Once you pass the 50ft mark, NO touching the throttle. This keeps the guy from sandbagging back on RPM's and just increasing the engine speed as the tires slip. If you want to pull 3rd gear at half throttle, go ahead, but you'll be at half throttle at the end of the track too.

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Hot Rod A

03-22-2008 20:46:53

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Just a question, I don"t pull with you guys so I"m not going to try to tell you how to run your club, but how do you come up with accurate numbers to go off of for a tractor like a John Deere G? No one I know of is running them on Distallate anymore. To be honest, if you were take a G with nothing more than a clean up bore and possibly a flat head, and then there is no reason a G should dyno anything under 50hp. Quite frankly if you"ve got a G on gas, with a gas manifold, flat head, and tight motor, than if you still dyno 38.6hp, then you"re seriously doing something wrong. Just my two cents, but I don"t think dyno-ing tractors is the answer when using only factory parts you can have 10 horse more. Moreover, few of these antique tractors we love so much have blocks that are free of wear or pits, and can simply be re-rung. So what do you do? Overbore them. But then where do you draw the line? is .045 over ok, but .090 not? Stick with speed limits, rpm limits, and tire sizes, if that isn"t enough, make it 1st gear only. Trust me, I"ve got a built motor and it doesn"t matter how much power you have if you can"t get it to the ground.

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massey333

03-23-2008 06:56:56

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to Hot Rod A, 03-22-2008 20:46:53

Slowsmoke's club and a few others have a MAX.HP per wt. class so it allows a small leeway and still keeps the Strokers(hot rods)out.There are some that use Neb.and will disq.you if you are ONE HORSE over which is cutting it too fine and is ????? ?.

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HossinMe

03-22-2008 17:20:34

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

OK,HERE WE GO!@!! I was at this meeting and the dyno vote was no surprise.85 to 90 members at the meeting and as i recall only 3 people didnt vote against the dyno.This dyno was owned by 3 members of the pulling committe.Most members thought it was owned by the club.When one of them won a pull all was well.If someone else won then they had to go to the dyno and were quickly dq"d.Then we found out the dyno was supposed to be water cooled,which these three members were not doing.A whole bunch of us were soon educated to these facts and voted it out.If they had of run it right it would still be in our club. Thanx for listening,Hoss

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buickanddeere

03-22-2008 16:50:24

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

The way to catch HP cheaters is to enforce a mph limit. 2-1/2 to 3 mph for stockers is lots. The JD G's and 70's do have an awful fast 1st gear and can get dq'd if not careful.

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WTW

03-22-2008 06:47:39

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

The dyno is no better than the guy running it and no better than the puller fooling it. Don't get all hung up on a dyno rather tailor your stock class rules for just that! Like smaller tire size limits more like stock tractors came with lower and longer hitch heights more like stock tractors came with. PTO shaft if you really think that is going to help. Stock carburetors. Stock air cleaners and stock rpm. 3 MPH verses 3.5 or higher like other classes will have. If I alone personally had the say (I Don't) I would class tractor size by there plow size. If someone with a misrepresented tractor wants to pull his modified 100 HP plus tractor against some 30 HP stocker bring him on, it would give me pleasure not only to beat him but even more so to see some other stocker beat him. Make the rules so the class is not about HP rather track reading and driving skills. If you so called stock pullers do not want HP in the class make rules where it will not have an advantage. No offense but people need to quit crying about HP and learn how to pull there tractors within there class rules. Rules tailored to stock tractor classes can be won with stock tractors without a dyno. I have beat many bigger HP tractors with half the HP they had for years. It can be done. The key to it is same speed same hitch and a better track reader and driver. Have I got beat? Yes I have and I would blame nobody but myself. Go pull and have some fun! MHO

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massey333

03-22-2008 08:58:20

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to WTW, 03-22-2008 06:47:39

First this is NOT a personal attack on anyone,just my take on a few things said.
WTW..You say stock size tires,lower drawbars in stock,What is that?Farmall Hs-Ms(example)came with 11-12-13 inch tires and 17 to 19 inch high bars from Fact.and around 20-21 inchs from center of axle.You are right on the reading of the track,but a 100 HP tractor running 3MPH in second or third gear( AS Farmall 560 Puller said) will beat a a 40 hp WIDE OPEN RUNNING 3 mph 9 OUT OF 10 TIMES.
Terry,,Your 2.5 isnt fair either because I don't know of many old tractors that don't have 2.7 to 3.5 MPH low gears at PTO rated RPM.so you are saying these people must run at half to 2/3 Engine speed.I thought Slow Smokes club rules were 3 MPH but STILL their club and a couple others that have the same HP rulings are the BEST and most Fair of any clubs I have pulled with.Nothing is perfect but You need some kind of control because like 560 Farmall Puller said all these Div.3 and 4 tractors comeing down into the Div.2 class has sure slowed the start of new pullers coming in.SORRY 560 if I misunder stood what you were implyed.Nothing Personal against anybody but I have seen MONEY AND GOTTED WIN AT ALL COST KILL THIS sport several times over the last 50 years.

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What's the point?

03-22-2008 21:35:18

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to massey333, 03-22-2008 08:58:20

Amen on div.3 tractors dropping down to div.2. The guy who got beat by 52' in the 3500# div. 2 class at the Dekalb pull 2008 turned around and won the div. 3 class. What's that say about the div. 2 winner. Good example of "hey I'm legal for div. 2", even if he was a div. 3 national champion last year.

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Terry B

03-22-2008 18:26:03

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to massey333, 03-22-2008 08:58:20

I beg to differ on the 2.5. We checked many of these tractors a rated rpm and allis was the only one that was to fast.

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buickanddeere

03-26-2008 03:45:03

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to Terry B, 03-22-2008 18:26:03

A JD G or 70 runs 2-1/2 mph at rated rpms on 13.6X38 tires. Run that tractor at fast idle on the factory optional 14.9X38 and she's pushing 3mph. A model 80 with the 16.9X34 tire sin 1st is 2-1/3 mph in 1st at rated rpms. Try fast idle rpms on the factory optional 18.4X34 or 23.1X30 tires. A 2-1/2 mph limit is the absolute lowest speed limit possible with 3.0mph being realistic for factory stock tractors. The guys with the late A, 50, 60, optional creeper 1st 80/820/830, 20/30 series everything Waterloo had creeper 1sts. A real advantage on clay power tracks. You can stall a stock 70 in the 6500lb class on a tough track. No speed advantage there.

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560 Farmall Puller

03-22-2008 13:38:55

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to massey333, 03-22-2008 08:58:20

Massey 333, you expanded on my thoughts perfectly. A perfect example was the Dekalb pull, go look at the results 50 and 60 hooks in Div. 2 and 4 and 5 hooks in Div3 and 4. And I know a lot of those tractors that were in 2 and a lot of them were probabaly well over 100 HP. I realize that guys want to make a few bucks when they pull,cmon. Isnt div.2 supposed to be close to stock tractors.

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Terry B

03-23-2008 11:03:32

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 560 Farmall Puller, 03-22-2008 13:38:55

Try div 1.

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Terry B

03-22-2008 06:35:20

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

The rule that states stock apearance helps alot as a governing tool. I agree, most tractors that are pulling have been worked on. As a puller in these classes I need just enough power to turn my tires; much more is a disadvantage to myself. I beleve the the best way to govern this class is a slow speed NOT 3.5 mph. In our club we pull 2.5 mph, forcing them to stay in low gear.The slower the better for lower powered tractors. Just my opinion and experience. Terry

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massey333

03-23-2008 06:37:54

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to Terry B, 03-22-2008 06:35:20

Terry, I'am baseing my speeds on Neb.,Ford 8n,Jub.,600,800=3.1 to3.7,JD 70,80,820=2.5,A-C D15-17=2.7,Case 500-900=2.7,300=2.6,Massey 101s,55s=3.2 to 3.6 and several others in the 2.5-2.6 range.I have 3 that I have to back off on to stay under 3MPH on standard tires and Stock RPM.If you or your club are happy then that is all that matters,just my take on the 2.5

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slowsmoke

03-22-2008 05:21:49

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

My club has a HP limit and speed limit for stock. Speed limit is 3.5mph, and Hp limit is based on weight, 3000lb is 35hp, 4000lb is 40 5500lb is 60 HP, etc.

No MSD to change hp, and if you move the cone (take 1st place) you back up to the dyno as soon as you weigh out. All dyno readings are at 540 pto, and tractors must run at least factory rpm's Works well to keep most of the tractors stock(ish)

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03-22-2008 05:16:43

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

But whats "stock" anymore?

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03-22-2008 02:31:24

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Someone slick can set a tractor up to pass the dyno test with a timing retarder.

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colekicker

03-21-2008 21:55:39

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I do find a little bit of an issue with the dyno. I do have reasoning behind it. Right now, I know of one manufacturer of tractors that is not ISO certified (Kubota). This means that the tractors coming off their assembly line do not meet a close enough variance for their factory to be certified. I would make an estimate that when our antiques were built that not every tractor off the line was their specific rated horsepower. Some were above and some were below. So, how do you approach this issue?

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560 Farmall Puller

03-21-2008 19:06:02

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

The MPH doesn't work if you don't enforce a low gear rule. Some of the clubs around here let guys run any gear so guys I used to pull against in Div. 3 and 4 are now back to Div.2 and idling down the track at 3 MPH. Div 2 is the most stock class we run in this area.

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james rumph

03-21-2008 18:43:35

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

I run a dyno service on the side for extra money. If your pulling in stock class the PTO should be there and the dyno should be used on the winners.

The MPH rule is used in our club and it doesn"t work. I have a M with more then stock hp and still keep it with in the 10% rpm range.

There is a local fair here every summer that everyone goes to and they dyno the winners. Well the people that pull stock don"t pull in the fair, guess why .

The dyno is a great tool if the people useing it know how to use it . I"m guessing that you have the NE test book with all the HP ratings and that the operators know how to figure out the math baced on the tractor being 10% over rated rpm . If it"s 10% over on rpm it will make more hp then the NE ratings ! You have to have to know how to figure this out. I run mine at 1710 rpm and make over 80 hp that is with in the "ok" range and that is not stock hp . You can"t dyno base on the book. I use a timing light with a digital tach in it to get a accurate rpm # just to check against the dyno tach.

I as the dyno operator push the throttle to wide open and get the rpm and base the math on that . The book is just a referance.

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mike f

03-21-2008 18:05:47

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

MPH seems to take care of the need to dyno, some clubs still want a pto in the tractor, must be for looks, not sure, didnt see any brushhogs at the end of the track for division 2 in recent years. LOL

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Welding man

03-21-2008 17:27:53

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to 1958johndeere620, 03-21-2008 17:17:24

Our club has a maximum tire size for each class and a 3.5 MPH speed limit up to 5000# and 4 MPH limit 0n 6000- 12000#.That pretty much takes care of the excess horsepower. A lot of the tractors in our club don't have PTO's. Makes it a little tough to dyno.

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hunter 1

03-21-2008 18:47:15

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Re: PTO dyno testing for rule enforcement in reply to Welding man, 03-21-2008 17:27:53

I agree on the MPH is a good idea for stock. But the MPH need to be set at a stock speed for the size tractors.

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