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3 phase or single phase for separate shop service

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ShepFL

10-17-2002 20:23:27

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Howdy Y'all!
New home is nearly done (thank goodness) and electric coop will be coming out in Nov. to move house service. They will be installing underground service. While they are here I want them to install separate service at the shop. I was thinking 200 amp 3 phase service.

My current tools only require single phase but thought 3 phase might be better in the long run as I see some deals on used industrial equipment but all require 3 phase. Seeking your comments. As always, thanks in advance for your assistance.
ShepFL

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Greg in Ohio

10-22-2002 04:45:28

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

For three phase conversion, you might also consider using a Variable Frequency Driver (VFD) for each machine. A VFD would give you variable speed and other control over the three phase motor.

One source for buying VFD units is Dealers Electric: http://www.dealerselectric.com/

Look under inverter drives.

Hope this helps.

Greg

VFD 101

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IMJMAC

10-21-2002 20:07:28

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

SHEP, I KNOW A GUY THAT HAS RUN A COMMERCIAL PRODUCTION MACHINE SHOP ON ROTARY PHASE CONVERTERS FOR YEARS, WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS. NOTICE I SAID ROTARY PHASE CONVERTERS. HE USES COMMERCIAL ONES.THEY ARE MUCH MORE EFFIECENT THAN STATIC CONVERTERS AND ALSO MORE EXPENSIVE.AS FAR AS YOUR MILL, IT WON'T TAKE THAT MUCH TO START IT. I RUN MINE ON A DIY CEDARBERG STATIC THAT CAME WITH MY MILL WHEN I BOUGHT IT. DEPENDING ON THE SIZE OF THE LATHE(5hp+),THEY DO REQUIRE MORE START AMPS.I PLAN ON MAKING MY OWN ROTARY WITH A 10HP MOTOR I BOUGHT JUST FOR THAT APPLICATION.YOU CAN RUN QUITE A BIT OF STUFF OFF A ROTARY CONVERTER AT ONCE BUT IT'S BEST TO ONLY START ONE MACHINE AT A TIME.JUST SOMEMORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

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Dave_Id

10-19-2002 22:31:05

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

Hey Shep, you ready to move back up to Idaho and get out of that humidity? I have a tool room setup out in the woods... like you, 3 phaze would've cost over $24k to run 6 miles. I figured I could buy a lot of phaze convertors for $24k.. All my machines are 3 phaze, and I have 200 amp service in the shop. I use rotary phaze convertors.. a 7 1/2 hp to run all the machines in the shop except to my CNC milling machine, that one has its own 15 hp phaze convertor... With all the equipment I have, 200 amp service was plenty... I have 5 machines running off a bus bar to save on breaker space in the box.. The only machine I have problems with is my lathe... I can't use the high motor speed, this takes 100 amps to start the motor...so I've gotten by for 9 years using the low motor speed..

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ShepFL - Yessiree I am ready . . .

10-20-2002 18:41:48

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Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to Dave_Id, 10-19-2002 22:31:05

problem is I got 12 yrs. into this job and trying to hang tough for the balance. Didn't make it back West this fall for elk season due to home construction. When I get out there in 2003 I will come by and check out your shop - I am sure I could pick up a few pointers. I come into St. Maries every trip as my Grandma Murphy lives on the hill in St. Maries (Washington St.)

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ShepFL - UPDATE; I am punting!

10-19-2002 14:40:43

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

Well Coop said no problem bring me the 3 phase power. All I have to do is pay for extended run. The last drop is ~15 miles away and to bring it in it is ~$21K. To rich for my blood.

So I will do as others have recommended:
1. Install 400 amp single phase service
2. Use a phase converter provided I don't overheat motor. I anticipate sufficient cooling between cycles.
3. Change the motors to single phase if machine is compatable.

Below is a link to an informative site for building a phase converter. Also in my response I have provided an address to an article discussing converter selection. Copy & paste this address http://www.gwm4-3phase.com/u&s.htm.

Hope y'all find the information useful. Thanks again for all the comments.

DIY Phase Converter

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Farmer Tom

10-20-2002 10:47:21

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Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL - UPDATE; I am punting!, 10-19-2002 14:40:43

Shep; You might want to check the cost difference between 400A and a 200A single phase service. I think you'll find a big difference as the 400 amp materials will be equipment used for commercial applications - hi dollar items. Most readily available electrical equipment for 400A is really made for 3-phase power adapted for single phase. The 200A service equipment can be built out of "loadcenter/residential" equipment which is much cheaper. Also, consider what you will be running at any one time. How much equipment will you be operating at one the same time and what will the current draw be at that time? As I said before, consider "load diversity". I am not against the 400A capacity if you really need it; if you do, go for it. If local codes will allow it, consider putting in 2-200A service rated main-disconnect panels with 40 circuit spaces in each panel, or have your electrical contractor set it up for with 400A serice entrance conductors throught the meter into a wireway and then tap them with one 200A panel at this time; if later you need more Amps, install the second 200A panel for more power capability. I guess what I am really saying is, there are several ways to do this. I am sure your elec contractor will give you some good info for your area.

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ShepFL - Now that is an idea!!

10-20-2002 18:48:40

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Re: Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to Farmer Tom, 10-20-2002 10:47:21

Farmer Tom -
I like your way of thinking. I am trying to have enough vision here for the future use. Equipment running at same time would most likely be commercial big tank air compressor and my welder.

I was wanting enough power to bring in a used milling machine and a used lathe to support my other hobby (gunsmithing). I was concerned about high rpms on lathe and startup amps for the milling machine. Your idea has a tremendous amount of potential and will permit me to continue saving for some tools while not breaking the bank to get power installed. Thanks, I will pursue with CO-OP and electricians. Drop me a line if possible as I have a few other questions. Thanks again !!

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That's a bargin! - RWK in WI

10-19-2002 17:36:23

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Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL - UPDATE; I am punting!, 10-19-2002 14:40:43

That price is a bargin. Here in northern Wisconsin the power company charges $12,000 per mile of 3 phase wire extensions. I would beabout 5 miles from the nearest drop. Sounds like you could get a bargin, Good luck on your project.

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VaTom

10-19-2002 16:30:14

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Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL - UPDATE; I am punting!, 10-19-2002 14:40:43

You gonna use a phase converter to power that giant crane (which didn't show up in the pictures)?

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ShepFL - har har har :)

10-20-2002 18:35:50

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Re: Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to VaTom, 10-19-2002 16:30:14

Hey VA TOM!!
Wait till you see what I got setup. It is kinda mobile like that pic you sent me awhile back. I will try to locate my pic and send it to ya. If I can't send it I will post pic for all to see.
Grins from here!
ShepFL

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Farmer Tom

10-18-2002 10:59:23

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

In my area, 3-phase for any use on a residential property is not possible. If you can get it for your shop, go for it. However, if you have a choice, opt for a 3-phase, four-wire wye system (120/208 volts) that way each phase is usable for 120 volt use. The 3-phase, four-wire hi-leg delta system (120/240 volts) will only give you 2 phases usable at 120 volts and some what limits the quanity of 120 volt circuits available; the third phase is generally 190 to 208 to ground/neutral and not really usable for anything except for a 240 volt single or three phase circuit. If I remember my math right, a 200 ampere 3-phase 120/240 volt wye service will get you 83+kw of power and then think about a diversity factor (you won't use everything all at once will you). As some say, just my $.02 worth!
Farmer Tom

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paul

10-18-2002 06:52:52

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

I'll be interested to hear what that costs extra. Requires 2 extra transformers as well as 3 wires (usually) running past your place. You need to pay them enough either up front or on monthly bill to pay for all that extra equipment.

If it's a cheap option in your location, go for it!

--->Paul

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TimC

10-18-2002 06:39:35

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

We can't get 3 phase on residential property.
Most people use a three phase motor to create the third phase. Either with a phase-O-matic which is just a couple capicators that kick in for the 3rd phase to get the three phase motor started so it can produce the third phase or they use a 220 motor to start the three phase motor.. Once that is done just switch that third phase over to a seperate breaker box, along with the two phases from your 220 and wahla. A local machinist and mechanic shop have been doing it for years and they do it every day. Running them all day long.

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Farmered

10-18-2002 06:11:41

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

Shep, I didn't hear an obvious answer, change the motor on your equipment to single phase. This of course depends on the machine and if the motor is an integrated part of the machine. Just a thought.
Ed

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Farmered

10-18-2002 06:10:48

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

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Bus Driver

10-18-2002 05:25:29

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

The other responses cover it well. Just be sure to ask the power provider lots of questions before you decide. For me, they wanted 5 years of minimum billing at $60.00 per month for 3 phase. I also went 400 amp single phase. My largest bill has been about $15.00 as I do not get in the shop many hours per month. A VFD (inverter) is the way to get 3 phase from single phase. Search for VFD on Google or eBay.

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Steve in Mo

10-18-2002 03:39:14

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

In this area, three phase is not available to residential. Only to commercial businesses. And there is a minimum monthly charge to boot. Last time I checked about a grand a month. Steve

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wrenchman

10-17-2002 23:06:42

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

if you can get 3phase without paying through the nose then by all means go fer it...on the other hand,if it's too expensive,you could always use a phase converter to run 3phase equipment...thats how i run a big mill in my garage...

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buck

10-17-2002 22:45:59

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

Have you considered 3 phase to the shop with a sub single phase to the home? may save.

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Ray,IN

10-17-2002 21:30:57

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Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to ShepFL, 10-17-2002 20:23:27

If you have 3ph available for use go for it. The cost of running equipment is much less; and like you said, you may buy used 3ph equipment very reasonable. You can get a 3ph cost comparator from your electric supplier.

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iceman

10-18-2002 06:20:53

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Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to Ray,IN, 10-17-2002 21:30:57

The way I understand it,the cost to run the machine should be about the same on 3 phase as it is on single phase.You are being charged by the watt, which remains constant regardless of amps and volts.(ohms law) The advantage to 3 phase is that there is no start relay, or capaciters to go bad.Also, since the full load is divided by 3, you use smaller gage wire to install. mike

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M.R.

10-17-2002 22:24:37

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Re: Re: 3 phase or single phase for separate shop service in reply to Ray,IN, 10-17-2002 21:30:57

I put in a 400amp single phase service to our shop and the only reason for not going with 3 phase is that it was 5 miles to run it at 20K a mile, it just wouldn't pencil out.

Put in the 3 phase and don't look back, you'll never regret it IMOHO.

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