Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tool Talk Discussion Forum

tap drill vs tap size again

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Fred OH

03-02-2004 10:55:51




Report to Moderator

Reading over on page two and noticed this in Ray,IN's reply:
"Another rule of thumb- the depth of the threaded hole should be minimum 3.5 times the diameter of the tap for maximum holding power." Lets see, for a half inch tap that would be 1 3/4" deep. I wouldn't want to tap a hole that deep...I always thought it was 1 1/2 times the tap diameter for maximum holding power. We'll still let you keep your journeyman's card though Ray. Fred OH

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Larry E

03-02-2004 19:13:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-02-2004 10:55:51  
The depth of taped hole needs to be 1 1/2 times diameter of bolt.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-02-2004 13:02:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-02-2004 10:55:51  
Hi Fred,

Well, the problem with some "rules of thumb" is that they usually don't apply everywhere and one has to be careful with their use. Ideally, the depth of thread engagement should be such that the shear strength of the internal thread is equal to the tensile strength of external thread. The length of engagement to accomplish this can range from less than one nominal diameter to several times the nominal diameter. It all depends on the material strengths of the two different parts, and to a certain extent the thread pitch. That's why the standard height of a gr 8 steel nut is about 1d (for use with a gr8 bolt). If one were to use a brass nut on a gr 8 bolt, the normal thread engagement would not be sufficient to develop the full strength of the bolt and the nut would strip (shear) well before the bolt would break. The thread pitch effect is also the reason why fine threads are stronger than coarse threads, other things being equal.

Mark has a good point with the different standard lengths of Helicoils. For steel on steel (similar strength), the 1d should normally be sufficient. For something like a common steel bolt in cast iron the 1.5d would be more appropriate and for stuff like a common steel bolt in aluminum, the 2d would probably be the better choice.

third party image Rod

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-02-2004 19:19:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Rod (NH), 03-02-2004 13:02:52  
I have a related question. I have a Farmall C. One spark plug hole had a damaged seat and also damaged threads. Took it to a machine shop and had the seat for the plug machined down flat, and there was supposed to be a helicoil put in. Put the head back on the tractor, started to put in the plugs, and noticed there was no heli-coil. Didn't want to take off the head again, so I'm using it that way, but probably still should have a helicoil. Question is: These are 18 mm plugs, a little less than 3/4 inch dia. I don't think there is 3/4 inch of thread left. I currently have some leakage. Do I need the 1d/1d with the helicoil? Not exactly like a bolt, since the plug is not holding another metal part in -- but it is supposed to hold in the compression, etc. The leak is not necessarily due to lack of threads, but to damage. Just curious if I should bite the bullet and get another head.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Joe (Wa)

03-02-2004 22:51:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to CNKS, 03-02-2004 19:19:51  
I think that I would try an 18 mm - 14 mm adapter and use an equivalent 14 mm spark plug for that cylinder. Put some locktite on the 18 mm thread to seal & lock it in the head. Personally I would change all the cylinders over. Joe



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Link...Joe

03-02-2004 23:26:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Joe (Wa), 03-02-2004 22:51:55  
Forgot the link, scroll to bottom of the page. Joe



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-02-2004 21:25:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to CNKS, 03-02-2004 19:19:51  
Hi CNKS,

Oh good lord no. I don't think you need another head. Those thread engagement "rules" are in the interest of achieving the maximum full strength of the external/internal thread combination. That would be the ideal but it is not always necessary. As long as there is sufficient strength in both internal and external threads for the application, then all is well. Normal sparkplug torques are not that great to be near breaking the sparkplug - it is also not a complete cross section like a bolt so it is a lot weaker in tension than a steel bolt would be of the same thread size. For that reason the engagements can be less than would otherwise be called for. I have a HeliCoil sparkplug kit (14mm) that has several different length (called "reach" in sparkplug terminology) inserts. The shortest insert has a reach indicated as 3/8" but only has about 3 or 4 useful threads. At 1.25mm pitch that works out to be only 0.36d. The plugs in my AC-B (14mm) don't engage more than 4 threads. You'll find the longer reach plugs are used in aluminum heads.

As long as you have a remaining head thickness in that area sufficient to get reasonably close to full engagement with the available plug threads, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Even if you can't, you are not blowing out plugs now. Therefore any improvement in getting new threads in place, even if it results in less of an engagement than original, should be satisfactory. If the existing threads in the head are seriously damaged, you ought to try and get an insert installed. It can be done in place if lots of care, time and grease is used to keep chips out of the cylinder. I am curious as to where you are getting leakage though. I take it it is a standard flat seat with a plug gasket and not a tapered seat. Is it because you can't really tighten the plug sufficiently (due to partially stripped or damaged threads) to make the gasket seal properly? I am assuming that the machine work was done correctly and fully perpendicular to the existing thread hole. That's a thing you will need to be careful of when installing an insert - keeping the thread perpendicular to the flat sealing surface so the plug gasket seats squarely.

18mm inserts may be hard to find. I am not sure if they are available from HeliCoil.

third party image Rod

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-03-2004 17:55:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Rod (NH), 03-02-2004 21:25:40  
The 18mm inserts are available, in fact the guy that did the seat had one on hand -- just forgot to put it in, not going back to him. There are probably 4 threads or so left. Don't know how to describe the damage, there is a piece missing, maybe 16th-32nd of an inch on most of the threads. It looks like someone tried to pry the plug out with a screwdriver. I stopped the visible leak with pipe dope as a temporary fix. Tractor runs ok for what I use it for. Really need to have the valves ground, etc anyway, will have the helicoil put in when I do that. I have heard of the 13mm conversion, these are hobby tractors that I like to leave more or less original, have no desire or reason to go to 13mm. 18mm plugs are readily available, they worked fine 50 years ago, still do. Thanks for the replies.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-02-2004 22:53:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Rod (NH), 03-02-2004 21:25:40  
I did a little checking and yes, HeliCoil makes an 18mm sparkplug kit: #5523-18 ($168). That's probably more than another head :o). However, if a shop near you has the kit, maybe you could arrange something. The HeliCoil is really a nice version of inserts. The tapping tool is excellent in that it pilots off the existing threads (or what remains of them), gradually taper reams and finally taps to suit the insert, all in one pass. That makes it real easy to keep the threads perpendicular to the gasket surface while doing the whole operation by hand in the field. I have used another kit, made by KD Tools I think, that was a lot cheaper but was quite difficult to get and keep square while tapping (no pilot). That's why I got the HeliCoil 14mm kit years ago. You get what you pay for in tools I guess.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-03-2004 18:01:59




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Rod (NH), 03-02-2004 22:53:18  
We have a good machine shop here, went there first, the guy was on vacation -- he works on that type head all the time, I'm sure he has the necessary materials. I priced the kit before I had the work done, it scared me off.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Fred OH

03-02-2004 18:58:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Rod (NH), 03-02-2004 13:02:52  
Hi Rod...Do you know about "the rule of thumb?" I once heard that it was the size of stick that you could beat your wife with...but it has gotten to be different for other things...such as metal threads and such. I have a Morse tap drill chart that lists 54% as the strength of mild steel that will twist the bolt off before stripping the female threads out...that was what we were talking about and Ray's figure of 60% is pretty well on the money. My opinion of the fine pitch threads being stronger than coarse is the fact that their less in depth leaving more meat in the center of the bolt for strength. Anyhow, glad you replied...some less knowledgeable person can get some use out of our info...Good post. Fred OH

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mark

03-02-2004 12:03:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-02-2004 10:55:51  
We have helical coils at work in sizes 1d, 1.5d, and 2d. Course I realize that a helical coil thread holds much better than the soft material into which it is placed and therefore can be shorter. 1 3/4 inch does seem to be pretty deep.
Mark



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Fred OH

03-02-2004 19:19:15




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Mark, 03-02-2004 12:03:22  
Hi Mark... I don't know when Helicoils thread inserts first came into existance but I have some old thread inserts that have two small slots down the OD of the threads that you drive little hardened pins to lock them in. Also there is another that has a spline on the top of the insert and the lock is a small washer with a internal and external spline and you have to counterbore the threaded hole for it...and the external spline press fits into the c'bore...and the internal one fits the spline on the insert locking it in. These may be surplus from the air force or maybe the aircraft industry to have stout threads in aluminum parts...maybe where they didn't have 1D or better in thread depth. Ever see any...or got any input on them? Fred OH

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Slowpoke

03-03-2004 00:45:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-02-2004 19:19:15  
I think the thread inserts using pins are called "Keyserts". Available at Graingers.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Fred OH

03-03-2004 07:58:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Slowpoke, 03-03-2004 00:45:27  
Hi Slowpoke...
If you and I had the job of naming them today...I'd vote for "pinserts." Ray seems to like them but one things for sure...once inserted you can't take them out...whereas the one with the splines...if you could pry the little splined collar out...you could screw the insert right out. Don't know about the helicoil type...once you break off that little tang it's kinda permanent. Ever have to take one out and replace it? Anybody? Sons got a 90 Chev, (4 cyl. alum head) that the catalytic converter got stopped up and blew out a sparkplug and I made a steel insert that had 3/4-16 thread outside and 14 mm inside and installed it with Loctite...but...he could tear up an anvil...in other words I needed a way to pin it in. I could, while the heads off...go inside and stake it in several places with a center punch...but probably should throw it away and get another...it's more than likely warped anyway. BTW...If I'm not mistaken...I have a 18 mm sparkplug thread chaser...I think it is made by KD Tools, Lancaster, Pa...I think someone was asking if they existed or not. Fred OH

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John Garner

03-03-2004 19:47:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-03-2004 07:58:10  
Removing a Heli-Coil-type insert (Heli-Coil is a tradename for what is generically known as a Spiral Thread Insert or STI; there are other, lesser-known tradenames for STIs) is easy. In fact, they are not often used in high-reliability applications because they come out so easily.

Heli-Coil and the other STI makers make removal tools, the most common looks something like a V-shaped screwdriver blade with chisel edges on the side of the V. The tool is tapped into the insert so that the chisel edges cut into the wire and the insert is simply unscrewed.

For larger sizes, the wire of the insert is simply bent to create sort of a "removal tang" that can be grabbed with a pair of pliers. It's very important that the insert be unscrewed, not simply pulled straight out, because pulling the insert straight out will usually destroy the thread in the parent material that the replacement insert would screw into.

There is also a VERY SLICK variant of the STI, the tangless STI. These were developed by Kato of Japan and sold in the US by Fairchild Fastener under the Coil-Thread brand, although I believe that the Kato patent has run out and other makers make the tangless inserts now.

Instead of a conventional drive tang, the tangless insert that a small notch at both ends of the wire. A retractable tooth on the insertion tool snags the leading notch and the insert screws right into its hole; turning the drive arbor backwards causes the tooth to pivot out of the notch and the tool unthreads from inside the insert. There is a conceptually-similar removal tool that threads into the to-be-removed insert and its tooth grabs the outermost notch so that the insert can be removed.

The ONLY drawback to the tangless inserts is the price of the tools . . . a couple of years ago the 1/4-28 removal tool was close to US $200.

Well, maybe there is a second drawback. Once you've used the tangless inserts you don't ever want to use the tang-type STIs again.

As for the other types of inserts, the "pin" type is a "key-locking" insert (commonly spoken of by the tradename Keen-Sert). Key-locking inserts are also easy to remove, but only by drilling away a part of the insert so that the "keys" can be bent and disengaged from the parent material.

The knurled-top-and-ring insert may have a generic name, but I've never heard them referred to as anything other than "Rosans", which is a plural of the tradename Rosan.

When it comes to replacing spark plug threads, probably the very best insert is the Timesert. Timesert has a website (maybe timesert.com, I've forgotten), and a Google search will turn it up. The special tooling is pricy, making Timeserts impractical for the casual user. Pity.

John

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Slowpoke

03-03-2004 16:38:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-03-2004 07:58:10  
I have one of those thread chasers with both 14mm and 18mm on the same tool. Got it from JC Whitney a year or two ago.
I think the end of a helicoil jams against the root of the female thread to keep it locked in. One might be able to remove it if the top end of the coil could be bent out away from the thread just enough to grab it with Vicegrips. There are lots of different Loctite products. Most of the non-removeable ones can be removed with heat, but #272 may work as it's good for 450°. Pricey @ $33/50ml.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ray,IN

03-02-2004 20:28:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: tap drill vs tap size again in reply to Fred OH, 03-02-2004 19:19:15  
Hi Fred! We used the inserts that locked with the two hardened pins. We bought them from the company that makes "Supertainium" brand fasteners. I can't remember the name of the inserts; too many years ago. I much prefered them to heli-coils, they are easier and faster to install. A special tap is not needed to install them and they have minimal thread depth on the o.d that requires a larger tap drill than normal. This coinsides with the 60% thread strength theory. I've never encountered the last insert you mention.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy