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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

tool rant

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hay

12-03-2004 07:29:41




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after reviewing and posting on here for several years, i thought i would rant a little about tools. i guess i'm like everyone else in the respect that i want a great deal on my purchases(low cost and great quality). well, they both don't go together. either have one or the other, but not both. i remember in my younger days when a tool was usually made in the U.S.A. and it was quality and i paid a good price for it also, but i still have a lot of 30-40 year old tools in good shape. nowadays everyone wants low cost and then complain about poor quality. i see the tools at some of the more modern farm stores and tool stores and almost everything is foreign made and a lot of it looks like junk, but it's cheap. we just can't have quality and low price at the same time. buy a SNAP-ON or other big name brand from the tool trucks and see what you pay for them. but they do last forever. gimme ya'll's thoughts on what you would rather have: low cost or quality?

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Ludwig

12-06-2004 14:56:10




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
Do you own your stuff or does your stuff own you? If you lost everything tomorrow would it break you or would you go do something else, or just get new stuff.
I buy pretty much everything used. My truck is a '96, the car that I drive 80 miles a day in is an '83 Mercedes diesel. I recently picked up an old Cub Cadet with a blown rod. I've got a rebuilt engine on the way.
I look for tools on eBay if the shipping price is good. I like to take time to wander through second hand stores too, always good tools to be found. These are tools with history, sweat has seeped into the pores. They're tools that want to be worked.

If it were all gone tomorrow I'd probably get a stick, some string and a hook and go fishing.

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big fred

12-06-2004 19:55:12




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 Re: tool rant in reply to Ludwig, 12-06-2004 14:56:10  
Ice fishing, I imagine, I heard it's snowed up your way.



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Ludwig

12-07-2004 06:33:44




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 Re: tool rant in reply to big fred, 12-06-2004 19:55:12  
Not a whole heck of alot. I'd probably wait until spring though. Ice fishing now would probably get me pretty frozen, theres only about 1/8" of ice...



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Davefr

12-05-2004 16:32:55




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
When I turned wrenches for 40 hrs/wk I bought Snap On.

I don't think they were better then other premium brands like SK or Proto but the dealer delivered them to me and gave me credit. The last think I wanted to do on my days off was to buy tools and I was happy paying 2X the price!!

If there was a Crapsman dealer that made "house calls" I would have bought from them too.



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Silver Pig

12-04-2004 09:50:38




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
Buy good quality tools, less chance of loosing skin because they break, less chance of having one break when your miles away from the store, which if it even came with a warranty, you know the quality is the same as the one that you just broke. Go to a pawn shop, pay no more than half price for Mac or Snap-On, and you will have something that will outlast you.
I have a small fortune in Snap-On tools and shop equipment (all paid for), and even though I don't work as a mechanic anymore, I still buy tools. One advantage, I could use my the bottom half of my rollaround as a casket, if my wife couldn't find 6 friends to carry me.

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Dick2

12-04-2004 06:24:58




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
J had S-K tools for over 40 years, until some SOB stole them. Buy cheaper tools now, just in case the guy comes back to hit me again.



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NC Wayne

12-03-2004 22:58:37




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
I work on equipment for am living, so, like the old saying goes, "My tools make my living". Personally I buy whatever tools I believe are gonna do the job I need them to do, and I don't care who makes them or how much or how little they cost. The main thing is that they are comfortable to use. If you look at some of the "advantages" of the name brand stuff like smooth chrome finishes, etc they look good in theory, but they aren't all their cracked up to be in everyday use. When I'm up to my elbows in hydraulic oil, give me a wrench with a textured finish any day of the week because it's alot easier to hold onto. True I may need to wipe it off with some brake-clean when I'm done, but that's no big deal.I do have some of the special, high dollar wrenches, like MAC's Microturns, that are only available from them, but for the standard stuff why pay that extravagant price when a tool 1/4 the price will work just as good. Between the common hand tools, all my impact stuff, enerpac rams, etc I've got at least $30,000 or more in tools on my truck right now. True it has taken me nearly 15 years to accumulate all this stuff from various sources, but if I had had to buy every piece through MAC or Snap-on I'd still be running around with nothing but a hammer and a few adjustable wrenchs because there's no way I could have afforded to pay their prices for every tool I've got. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the store brands like NAPA's Evercraft, with the Northern brand wrehches, etc. They are nice looking, quality tools, with a lifetime warranty, for a fair price. If you look at the warranty isue though, when will you actually need to take advantage of that? If you put enough force on a wrench to literally break it, on the proper size bolt, then more than likely you've already twisted the bolt off or it's obvious you need to try something else to get the bolt out because the wrench just isn't gonna work. I can understand alot of reasons for buying the "cheap stuff" to throw in the tractor toolbox, etc where it might tend to get wet and rusty, etc. Maybe when your tools make your living it's different, but what I can't understand is the excuse of losing tools as a reason for buying cheap stuff. With me(nearly 15 years) and Dad(over 25 years), both running field service trucks, I don't think we've "lost" more than maybe 10 tools between us in all those years. Several of them were lost in belly pans, etc. Places where they got knocked off and you knew where they went, but they weren't accessable to retrieve. It just doesn't pay to take half a day to find a 25 cent 1/4 drive socket. True, some have fallen prey to the occasional brain flop, heck I was in a hurry and left my big scraper--$10-- on the front bucket of a borrowed backhoe and it disappeared somewhere in the 1/2 mile between my house and the neighbors. The main thing is to keep everything organized and eliminate part of the memory process in making sure nothings left behind. Use socket rails, if one's missing when your done, find it and fill the slot. Put tools back when your done with them, if you just used two 3/4 wrenches on the front of the tractor, and need a 9/16 on the back, put the 3/4's back before you get the 9/16. Like I said, brain flops happen, but they can be all but eliminated with a little orginanization, so that's no excuse in my book.....so, cheap, pricey, none of it matters as long as it's a quality, functional tool, that's comfortable to use. All the money and beauty in the world won't make a tool comfortable. Just my .02..... ....

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msb

12-03-2004 19:35:41




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
Snap-On tools also wear out.I have worn out several over the years,but they replace then free of charge.Since I no longer twist wrenchs for a living,I now buy Craftsman .They replace them free too.Unfortunately Sears no longer sells a good rachet,so I just keep taking them back.Good thing there is a Sears hardware store 1 1/2 miles away.Maybe I'll switch to K-Mart tools. lol.



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Ludwig

12-06-2004 14:49:48




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 Re: tool rant in reply to msb, 12-03-2004 19:35:41  
I moved up and added a 1/2" ratchet to my toolbox, haven't broken my 3/8" since...
Sorta proves to me I was probably overloading my 3/8" unit pretty frequently.



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No reserve name

12-04-2004 14:15:28




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 Re: tool rant in reply to msb, 12-03-2004 19:35:41  
Yea the Sears rachet, what a piece of s%^&.
I got fed up taking them back and bought Klien instead and have not broke one yet,same price and same warranty.



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FarmerDave

12-03-2004 18:56:36




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
My fellow Americans already sent my job to India. My old man left me this farm. If I could sell rocks I'd be eating well. Anyway I keep plugging at it. I fix fence, buy fertilizer and try to hire as little done as I have to.

My problem is I think I need a whole bunch more tools than I have. I think I have a lot. I see them boys talking about hole saws in another thread. I have a set of cheap chinese hole saws. In the two years I have owned this set I have drilled one hole in an electrical box with them. I wish I had seen the fellows comment about cutting oil before I drilled that hole.
But I got my hole drilled.

I like quality. I think buy a good one and you'll only cry once. But then again my toolbox got stolen a few weeks ago.

I get what pay for and I try not to complain unless I been lied to. Or unless I paid top dollar and got crap. But let me warn you - DO NOT BUY THE HARBOR FREIGHT T-POST LIFTER.

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Neal

12-06-2004 18:23:10




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 Re: tool rant in reply to FarmerDave, 12-03-2004 18:56:36  
I have a Harbor Freight post puller and have used it many times with good results over the past 5 years. I have loaned it out and the people that used it want to get one also. We have a horse property, so we are always doing some fence work. I feel that you have to look over the Harbor Freight tools real good, as some are great and some should never leave the store, as they are junk. I also have a Harbor Freight fence stretcher for box weave fence that works excellent for putting up horse fencing. Maybe I just got a good one.

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IHC Red

12-03-2004 21:19:30




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 Re: tool rant in reply to FarmerDave, 12-03-2004 18:56:36  
Your post has a poetic sadness to it.



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Socrates

12-03-2004 11:18:36




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
I agree with lots of these comments, but I think everyone is missing the point. You only get to do this life on earth once, so you better make the most of it.

To me, that means doing everything I do to the absolute best of my ability. It also means I want to be surrounded by things I need that share those traits. That doesn't mean expensive - just well done. My 200 year old farmhouse doesn't look like much - yet - but it has been around and is in excellent shape after 200 years. There won't be one recently built house in my locale that will stand in probably 50 years, much less 200. Everybody thinks I should just put siding on it to make it look pretty now. I say why?

What is everybody in such a hurry about? Losing tools? Slow down. Don't have the money to purchase the nice tools? Slow down and save.

Off my highhorse before someone knocks me off.

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big fred

12-03-2004 10:04:50




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
I'd rather have the best value. That may be the cheap one, may be the highest quality one, may be a home-made one, may be a rental or it may be doing without or using a substitute tool. I don't understand how so many can feel that if it's made in China it's poor quality. People used to think that about Japan years ago and when they weren't paying attention, Japan cleaned our clock. China is poised to do the same. All told, I think I feel just as comfortable paying someone in China 2 bucks an hour to build a product as I do paying someone in Chicago 40 bucks an hour to build the same product, provided the product quality is the same. The feller in Chicago just needs to be about 10 times as productive, given that the feller in China has to pay higher shipping charges to get the product to me.

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F/F

12-03-2004 15:57:08




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 Re: tool rant in reply to big fred, 12-03-2004 10:04:50  
Big Fred, who is going to buy the product YOU produce when the guy in Chicago loses his job and has no money to buy the product you produce????I dont think the 2.00 an hour guy in China can come over here and buy from you. We are all guilty of spending way too much of our money on goods produced in other countrys while good Americian jobs are falling by the wayside.



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big fred

12-03-2004 21:11:13




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 Re: tool rant in reply to F/F, 12-03-2004 15:57:08  
Well, the stuff I make gets sold to the Government and it travels to places like China and Iraq and delivers stuff made by others like me. We generally hope they don't ship anything like that back to us. I work in the defense industry.

But you missed my point. What I was saying is that if you're gonna claim all Chinese made stuff is junk, you're kidding yourself. Their quality is getting better all the time, and at the same time their standard of living is going up. In the meantime the quality of stuff made here is not improving nearly as fast and in many cases is not improving at all. China and India are the next Japan.

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Don-Wi

12-05-2004 11:04:46




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 Re: tool rant in reply to big fred, 12-03-2004 21:11:13  
I work in a machine shop and just this past week I had to fix a f#ck up because of Chinese junk. We made some taper-lock hubs, the female end. We checked ours with an American hub, and they fit perfect. Purchaser used Chinese crap and they went on too far and didn't lock. When they called and complained, we told them to send them back w/ a the bushing they purchased. Box said in BIG BOLD letters: MADE IN CHINA. Fixed our parts and sent them the bill for doing so. The $5 they saved in parts cost them $45 to fix the problem.
I refuse to buy chinese. Japanese on the other hand isn't so bad. I have a 0"-6" set of Mitutoyo micrometers and I love them. They, as well as Starrett, are top of the line. Starrett is made in Athol, Mass. I own a little of both, and also Fowler. I go for Quality. I'm only 20 yrs old, been working there for 2 1/2 yrs, and already have almost $3000 invested in my tools. No where near done building it up.

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Ludwig

12-06-2004 14:47:34




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 Re: tool rant in reply to Don-Wi, 12-05-2004 11:04:46  
Don,
Toyota is currently poised to become the largest automaker in the world. Items from China on price alone (that is if its the cheapest whatever it is) will be of inferior quality, but there are quality things being made in China.
To say that all Chineese or Japanese or Indian or whatever stuff is junk only closes your eyes to the fact that good stuff can be made anywhere. Thats the reason that the Detroit automakers are being STOMPED on by the Japanese and now the Koreans. High quality cars at a lower price have built the foreign car makers and will do the same in all other markets. Nearly ALL computer equipment is made in Asia now, see IBM getting out of the market. Americans are by and large just fat, stupid, lazy and ignorant...

And lest you think I'm just picking on Americans I'm one of them....

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Don-Wi

12-06-2004 21:05:32




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 Re: tool rant in reply to Ludwig, 12-06-2004 14:47:34  
I know we're just getting fat. stupid and lazy, but Pres. Bush isn't helping either. Working in a machine shop I run across stuf from all over the world. Most is okay, but it seems everything I come across from China just doesn't have the same tolerances. They may make 1 or 2 parts to tolerance, but then the other 15 peices will be way off. I've seen what happens when the price of steel doubles in less than a year. I don't get the raise I should be getting because they can't afford it. Working for peanuts in this society just doesn't get a guy ahead when he has to go to work to pay for the car/truck he drives to work, and he still has to fill it with gas every week for almost $2.00 a gallon. I see your point but you also have to see mine. I'm not a white collar lawyer, doctor, pencil pusher, etc... like most Americans are now becoming. I live and work on the family farm, go to school from 6-9 in the morning then go work 6-8 hrs all before coming home to help with chores and go to bed to do it all over again.
Donovan from Wisconsin

by the way, my dad drives a 2000 tacoma and it's alright, but I would never get one myself.

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Ludwig

12-07-2004 06:41:45




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 Re: tool rant in reply to Don-Wi, 12-06-2004 21:05:32  
Ahh, you said it not me. Being a moderate on this right leaning site will occasionally get you flamed pretty bad.
I drive a '96 Dodge Dakota and its a good truck, but the newer ones are all plastic and made in Mexico anyway. Remember Toyota trucks are assembled in Kentucky, its not the Japanese workmanship but the design is also generally superior. If you look back on the stupendous number of really lousy American cars (What was the one Cadillac sold that was a Pontiac Sunfire underneith? When was the last time you saw a Kcar or Omni on the road? How about the 350 diesel that averaged 50,000 miles before being totally destroyed?) then think about the really lousy Asian cars.... (Well Daiwoo went out of business, their cars weren't terrific. Early Honda's and Datsuns rusted quickly and although the performance was great the RX7 would only go 70k on the rotary engine...)
For every bad Asian car there have been 6-8 really terrible American cars. Don't forget in the '70s when American car manufacturers only planned for their cars to last 2-3 years so you'd have to buy a new one...

They're at it again, sales of big SUVs are down sharply, sales of small SUVs are up sharply. What does Detroit do? Announce new big engines for the big SUVs. Toyota can't make hybrid cars fast enough and GM and Dodge hold off making one because they "aren't sure of the market"...

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LumbrJakMan

12-03-2004 10:46:42




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 Re: tool rant in reply to big fred, 12-03-2004 10:04:50  
If you buy it once with a Guarantee for Life . Craftsman, Snap On . ETC . you have paid for it and will NEVER have to buy that tool again !!! No choice for me actually, I go with Quality !



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farmweld

12-03-2004 09:42:58




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
quality, by far. thats why at 14 i already have 1500$ worth of craftsman and mac. getting ready to add on at christmas.



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Coloken

12-03-2004 09:23:35




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
Gotts get in my 2 cents. to old to pull wrenchs any more but-
If I worked as a mechanic in a shop when I could keep track of my wrenches and used them 8 hours a day, I would gradually build up my chest full of the best I could buy. I don't think much of sales person burning a kid just out of school for 3000 to 8000 dollars right off the bat. As a farmer where many wrench wound up in the dirt out in the field, I bought the best I could find that were cheap. Discount store ones. Number 1 rule is, you can't use it if you don't have it.

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kraigWY

12-03-2004 09:20:24




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
There is no such thing as a good Cheap tool. I have a skill (cicular) that blonged to my fil's father, he used in in the construction business during wwII. about 15 years ago it quit and I took it in to have fixed. The guy said it would cost about $35. I told him I could buy a cir saw for that. He offered to trade any saw in the place for my broken saw. I told hime to fix it, he put in bushes and I plan on giving it to my grand kids, I do however have to replace the blade every now and then. There is no cheap good tools.

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greasy

12-03-2004 09:04:58




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
I buy the quality tools where needed..the heavy abuse, and for the tough jobs. Screw and bolt extracters, large open end wrenchs above 1". Any tool that I believe extra strengh is needed. The cheaper tools fill in as the ones I dont care much if they get lost or bent or break. However I did purchase a set of Craftman open end set on Ebay for a reasonable price, they must be a blemished set because some are of not the right size and they have to be filed to fit. The open end will not fit but the box end will fit. This is only on about four of the wrenchs in the set that I got. I believe it was $45. for a 18 piece set, which is 2.50 each so am not complainin.

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Bill WI

12-03-2004 08:27:35




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
The problem I have is Snapon and Craftsman don't guarantee a wrench or socket I leave in the grass or out in the field. I've had these senior moments since I was a kid. lol My 96 Suzuki Sidekick with 140 thousand don't ride like a Cadilac, but it's paid for and I have enough left for a fish lunch today. If a semi or Explorer run over me ----- Pray for me. Bill



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Steve (Magnolia, TX)

12-03-2004 07:50:05




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 Re: tool rant in reply to hay, 12-03-2004 07:29:41  
I'd RATHER have the quality (with low cost, ha ha), but...
Since I don't make a living with my tools, I (here recently, anyway) buy cheap tools. I do have Craftsman sockets and wrenches (that I've had for several years) and I have no intentions of getting rid of them, but for the most part, when I buy new tools, I go down to the local Harbor Freight store...

Steve



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lucass

12-03-2004 08:49:47




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 Re: tool rant in reply to Steve (Magnolia, TX), 12-03-2004 07:50:05  
i usually get craftsman when on sale. the huge sockets and wrenches i go foreign.i got alot of snapon wrenches about 10 years ago , the guy would take 20.00 every other friday on whatever you bought so i plunged.and the fit and feel is great. i must say though , after using a freinds snap on impact set , i found they worked so well,especially on heads with rounded corners i sprung the 135.00 each for a snapon metric and sae set.if you look at how they are made youll understand how they work on rounded bolt heads. when i turned wrenches 10 hours a day 5 days a week the snapon was a good deal. maybe not now though since i only do it every now and then. lucass

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ray in ct

12-03-2004 11:09:55




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 Re: tool rant in reply to lucass, 12-03-2004 08:49:47  
I just bought a set of husky sockets at Home Depot wonder if I'll pass them on to my kids...wanted a cased set to store behind the bench seat. I have a variety of tools collected over the years Snap-on on down to no name chinese items. Its usually my skills/decisions making process that leaves me hanging and not the tool in hands fault. Some sockets just don't look structural enough and those I wont use near my face or a place where if I slip I get dinged. Last night I needed to replace my 9" grinding wheel on the grinder. Could not travel back to my tools to get a 1" box wrench so I ground a Craftsman 3/4 - 7/8 combo wrench out to 1" problem solved I did feel guilty grinding it out but I figured I'll make that the wrench a permanent purpose tool for that and keep it with my welding supplies. I fully expect my son someday to curse me as I cursed my father for grinding something out of spec and not noting it.

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farmweld

12-03-2004 12:44:41




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 Re: tool rant in reply to ray in ct, 12-03-2004 11:09:55  
i was watching AHR last friday, and they needed to get to a bolt with a wrench, not a socket. (dont know why a socket wouldent work though) they put the oxyacetalene torch on the wrench bent it, and finished the job. they then took it back to sears, said it had bent, and got a new one, no questions asked.
suprising, but true.
farmweld



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dr.sportster

12-18-2004 08:36:11




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 Re: tool rant in reply to farmweld, 12-03-2004 12:44:41  
If your tools are secured as in a shop then Snap-on is the way to go.Nothing wrong with craftsman for feild use.S_K,Williams,proto,Husky,blackhawk,all great tools.I swore off china crap years ago.The fact that anyone buys foreign cars,power tools,etc. annoys me .Yet my chevy is mexican.The fact that chinese quality is getting better deeply worries me.When is the last time you saw a BUY AMERICAN bumper sticker.Fake patriots with flags on hondas.

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