Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Can a refrigerator operate on its side?

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Wardner

09-07-2007 11:15:40




Report to Moderator

I'm thinking about building an ice cream making and vending tractor. I have a Farmall 400 with a side mounted Electrall. That's an IH branded 10 KW 220/110V single phase by 208V three phase AC generator made by GE.

I'd like to use a side-by-side refer/freezer combo. The freezer would hold the pre-made ice and newly made ice cream. The refrigerator would hold the liquid ice cream mix, sodas, and maybe chilled water.

If the refrigerator/freezer were laid on its side with the doors facing to the rear, half a dozen electric "White Mountain" freezers/mixers could be placed on top. These use the old fashioned salt/ice chilling principle.

I understand that there will be alot of weight here and structural improvements would need to be made. My question is whether the refrigeration mechanicals would need to be altered. I also have some concerns about damage to the unit while the tractor is moving on its own or loaded on a truck or trailer.

I could also use a recommendation on brands to use or avoid. These combo units pop up all the time on Craigslist and are offered for free.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
LM

09-08-2007 17:17:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
That sounds like an interesting business idea/project, I used to work as maintenance tech in a large ice cream factory and remember our refrigeration engineer was talking about doing something similar, fitting a small continuous rotary popsicle machine (a Gram Ria 4) in a truck body, operating it on site at shows and fairs and selling the product straight off the machine.
He's still talking about doing it!!


Refrigerator will not operate correctly on its side the compressor oil will get out of the sump and unit will probably sieze

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Spook

09-07-2007 18:19:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
Neat project!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave Sherburne NY

09-07-2007 14:23:59




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
rhouston is right , refrigerators have to be upright



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
gdherc

09-07-2007 12:53:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
Would not advise running the refer unit on it"s side. Oil will run out, loose lubrication, and could get too much oil into the upper end of the compressor and cause it to seize up from that as well.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wardner

09-07-2007 11:43:47




Report to Moderator
 Picture in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
third party image

This is a factory photo.

My tractor is identical. The refrigerator would mount to the "carryall" arms that plug into the fast hitch. I will also need to mount an ice crusher with PTO or electric power.

The tractor will also need a good sanitary system. That would include a 200 gal SS water tank. A heat exchanger for hot water. An electric booster to get temps above 180 degrees. And lastly a high pressure water pump and wand for keeping things clean.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JML755

09-07-2007 12:37:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:43:47  
Wow, what a project! How much are you going to have to charge for a sundae to get a return on that investment? Don't mean to poke fun at your plan, but it seems like an awful lot of effort to sell ice cream. Must be a labor of love.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wardner

09-07-2007 13:35:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to JML755, 09-07-2007 12:37:35  
Ice cream has a very good mark-up. When I got out of the service in 1968, I built an ice cream vending body for my 1932 Ford pickup. It was built from oak and ash, had two large cold plates, 1/2hp compressor, and six sets of the heavy duty chrome plated brass hinges. It could hold 4000 2.5 oz ice cream novelties (ice cream bars, Nutty Buddies, sandwiches, popsicles, etc). I made money selling items for $0.05 to $0.15 each. Motorcycle races were the best venue. I still have the truck. Yes, the frame, springs, and axles, were beefed up. I built another truck on a 1923 1-ton Graham Bros Truck but sold it many years ago. I started a Harley-Davidson sidecar vending unit but never finished it. But I might someday.

I would like to do something different. I want to make a premium product and sell it at locations where the crowd is interested in the process and gets to enjoy the result. The portion selling price is likely to be between $3.00 and $4.00 for a pint. That is equivalent to Ben and Jerry's product. If I can sell 200 pints a day, I should be making it worth my while.

I have everything but the White Mountain freezers. OK, I don't have the refrigerator but I could pick up at least three by next week and they would all be free and running. New 6 quart White Mountain freezers will cost about $200 each and can be liquidated easily on eBay. I will have the option of making my own ice or buying it. I will probably start out by buying it for around $0.07 s pound delivered.

I would like to arrange the distribution via a self serve ice cream bar with all the fixens. That would require an additional capital outlay.

Punch the link below for others in the same business. I think the local boards of health would shut some of these guys down if they knew about their operations.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
T_Bone

09-07-2007 15:30:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 13:35:42  
Hi Wardner,

No they will not work on any position than they were designed for. The compressor, evaporator and condenser are all designed to work in a certian position with-in 15º of design level.

You can guy commerical freezer boxs then add on the needed refrigerating equipment using one compressor (Copeland) and many evaporators for each department. Look for commerical refer equipment for a good choice. This may not be as expensive as you think. Used is eqipment is easy to find.

I made a ton of money off of ice machines as there very high maintance. You will be better of getting a commerical ice account and buying your ice wholesale. A typical 200# to 500#/day ice machine will cost approx. $800yr in maintance from someone who knows what there doing. Finding the right person for maintance is the hardest part.

T_Bone

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wardner

09-07-2007 17:35:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to T_Bone, 09-07-2007 15:30:27  
Thanks T-Bone

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. I figured the compressor would be a problem but wasn't sure about the condenser or evaporator.

My biggest roadblock will be how to size the components. I'll have a good idea on the number of cubic feet I'll need but I won't know if the corresponding evaporator will be adequate. I assume the compressor will be an engineered package with the right condenser but I won't know how to figure the tonnage or HP. If I am not mistaken, one can err on both too much or too little.

As far as the ice machine, I was thinking about a block ice maker that chills propylene glycol in a tub. Suspended in the tub are SS or plastic molds filled with water. The molds are emptied and filled by hand every 12 hours. What can go wrong with that?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
T_Bone

09-08-2007 06:54:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 17:35:05  
Hi Wardner,

You might check with your local county/city health dept as they won't allow the use of household refers/freezers to be used in commerical applications. The commerical appliance must have a NSF stamp to be approved. I would think a trailer dedicated to food prep would be the cheapest way to comply with the county health codes.

I've only messed with one PG refrigeration system in the field. I remember it was extreamly slow in thermal transflow. I was pretty shocked as on paper PG looked pretty good as a transfer medium. I didn't take the time to figure out if it was a design problem or just a good idea that didn't work.

In any event, stay away from radial compressors as they just won't hold up in the field. Piston compressors are the best. You might find a local refer man that might have some design software or can size the componets for you.

T_Bone

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wardner

09-08-2007 17:09:02




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to T_Bone, 09-08-2007 06:54:54  
I went to the NSF site. It looks like they have threshold standards for commercial ice cream equipment, ice making and storage, refrigeration, hot water, and cold water. If a manufacturer meets or exceeds NSF guidelines, he is entitled to stick a NSF sticker on his product. I suppose I could comply and purchase that certified hardware, but the White Mountain or similar freezer is integral to the concept I am trying to build. Using a similar analogy, I want to sell the "sizzle" as well as the steak.

I don't want to hide everything in a concession trailer. If it comes to that, I'm out. I want something so unusual that people and organizations will invite me to their events. In some cases, they would pay me rent or pre-purchase all the ice cream and supplies at retail. This would be a reversal from my experiences 30-40 years ago. I usually had to pay a commission or rent space. I see large company summer picnics as one such venue.

I have no interest in soft serve or the $25,000 SS batch ice cream makers seen in boutiques. In the first instance, the product tastes awful. In the second, all you get to see is a machine that appears to be defecating into a tub every ten minutes.

Every town in Massachusetts has its own Board of Health and compliance levels. I think at this point, I wlll try to put this machine together with materials on hand or hardware that can be easily resold. As for the storage freezer, I will probably use one of the old style deep freezes such as were made by IH. I know where there are two of them but they are 1000 miles from here.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
T_Bone

09-09-2007 06:25:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to Wardner, 09-08-2007 17:09:02  
Hi Wardner,

I'm not trying to be negitive on your idea as I think it sounds like good idea but just trying to bring up those peskey rules I ran into while working.

I personaly would visit my county health honcho and sit and have a talk with him/her and just see what they want you too comply with. Here it's county health as then city health will go along with what the county said if you pass there rules and get that county health tag. This will save you alot of headaches after the fact. I would also think CH would be more interested in product temperature than NSF rating but you just never know until you talk with them.

T_Bone

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wardner

09-09-2007 11:22:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: Picture in reply to T_Bone, 09-09-2007 06:25:49  
I appreciate your suggestions, T-Bone. I know the Director of the Board of Health in a neighboring town. We were neighbors while growing up. I will probably pay him a visit when I get my design finalized.

I still haven't selected the tractor I want to use. I could use one of my SMTAs for the "retro" look or my propane W400. The propane availability could run absorbtion type refrigeration. All three tractors have the ability to run the Electrall. Initially, I was thinking about running the White Mountain (salt/ice) ice cream freezers off a PTO powered line shaft. While it would look interesting, it would also be a safety issue in a public setting.

The handling of ice cream is tricky business. Salmonella and coliform bacteria are two of the health risks. I will most likely buy a premium pasteurized ice cream mix as I don't think I am capable of producing a consistently safe product. Moreover, I don't want to set up a facility for processing the limited amount of product I would sell.

Fortunately, I live in a densely populated part of the country. This gives me a large market to sell into as well as a greater selection of suppliers for hardware and perishable product. At this point, I am day dreaming and using the web to feed those dreams. I'll have to start getting serious this coming winter so as to be ready for next summer.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
rhouston

09-07-2007 11:25:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
the sealed compressors in most refrigerators will not like running on their sides as the oil that is normaly in the bottom will not be there to lube the compressor. Think of it like running your tractor on its side. The oil would not be in the pan and the engine would seize. Now if you could somehow turn the compressor right side up it MAY work. There still may be other issues with the coils but I am not knowledgeable in that area.

This is all based on what I was told when transporting refrigerators. never on the side unless you let it sit for 24 hours before plugging it in. and even that may be wrong so I always try to transport standing up.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jrry

09-07-2007 11:25:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
It should run ok but the oil in the compressor would probably leak out.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jon Hagen

09-07-2007 11:21:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: Can a refrigerator operate on its side? in reply to Wardner, 09-07-2007 11:15:40  
The compressor would need to remain upright so the pump intake would have access to oil and refrigerant. Everything else should work with the exception of any condensate drip trays and such.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy