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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel engines

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Dave

09-30-2003 04:04:18




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Hi all. I am doing a bit of research into what people think about Perkins and Cummins engines, especially their new electronic ranges!

Anyone had any good/bad experiences?
Would you be swayed to buy an electronic diesel engine over a mechanically goverened one?

Let me know

Cheers all!




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Wayne

09-30-2003 20:54:19




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 Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel engines in reply to Dave, 09-30-2003 04:04:18  
I drive a '94 FL106 Freightliner with a Series 50 Detroit with the DDEC3 controls. In the reliability department, the truck has almost 350,000 miles on it without any major problems. I did have a sensor go bad awhile back and it shut the engine down on a busy road 100 miles from home. Fortunately I'm a field service mechanic and it was my work truck so I had my Prolink and the right cartridge with me and it was something I was able to override and get the truck back on the road til I could get home and get a new one. To me though this is the main thing wrong with the electronic engines, you have to have the proper computer equipment/testers/scanners/ or whatever you want to call them to be able to work on them. What's even worse these tools are expensive and often times just having the scanner isn't enough, you have to have a cartrige specific to whatever brand of engine your working on. Personally I can buy alot of basic hand tools for $2500 and do the troubleshooting with my brain and 5 senses as good as that computer can do. Then when you do find the problem, even the smallest sensor is probably gonna be specific to that OEM and is gonna cost you... I guess what I'm saying is electronic controls have their place, and their good points, but let a cheap ($150) dollar sensor fail and shut down your $150,000 machine and see how you feel. Then ad on top the other $2000 your gonna have to give a dealership find and replace that "cheap" sensor because you don't have all the diagnostic equipment to find it yourself, and then see how you feel about electronics. I know they claim fuel savings, lower emissions, etc etc etc, but in the end all it takes is one seemingly minor problem and the cost out of your pocket far outweighs the money your supposed to be saving on everything else because of the electronics. Then in the same line of thinking I had a guy at a dealership tell me once that the older engines were cheap enough and simple enough to have worked on and repaired that people seemed to be more likely to either tune them up themselves or bring them in for a tune up thereby keeping emissions down more so with them than the electronic ones that were so expensive to work on that they let them run til they dropped because they couldn't afford "routine" maintenance. Basically the electronics take vehicle maintenance out of the hands of the average consumer and put that consumers money back into the hand of the OEM, nothing more..... Just my .02..... .....Wayne

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G-MAN

10-01-2003 07:49:28




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 Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel engines in reply to Wayne, 09-30-2003 20:54:19  
That is a problem with over-the-road engines, as they have to be installed in so many different manufacturers' chassis. Most of our JD tractor engines are pretty much self-diagnosing. You can pull fault codes right there in the cab by doing nothing more than installing a fuse in the diagnostic slot, and the codes are displayed on the cornerpost display. Actually, if you're runing the machine at the time of the fault, you can simply push a "CODE" button on the right-hand display, and it will tell you the code number, which the operator or owner can then give to us when he calls for service. 90% of the problems are sensor failures, so if you have a list of the codes, you could fix nearly anything yourself, even if you don't have the laptop. You can do the same with a laptop and Service Advisor, and there are some other special functions that the laptop can perform, but in the majority of cases, it's not necessary. I like working with electronics and electrical systems, so I have no problem with them, but there are a lot of techs that won't touch them. It's something you have to get used to, because electronics are here to stay.

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Ben in KY

10-01-2003 12:23:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel eng in reply to G-MAN, 10-01-2003 07:49:28  
Yes I guess electronics are here to stay. But what about getting electronic parts 20 years or so down the road. Metal can be welded and machined, computer chips are a bit harder to replicate when they become obsolete. I guess the Old Iron of the future will be the really older iron. The tractors from this point on will be sitting dead for want of a microchip.
I am not anti electronics, I have made my living for over 30 years on electronics and computers. I just dont want them on my tractor.

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G-MAN

10-02-2003 16:08:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel in reply to Ben in KY, 10-01-2003 12:23:44  
There are a lot of guys that don't want them on tractors, but the problem is that the environmental regulations require them, if the machine is to meet emissions standards. There is also a rapidly-growing contingent of farmers that realize just how much electronics can improve productivity and add to the bottom line, particularly with a farm economy like we've got now. I'm not worried about future parts availability in the slightest. I'm fairly certain that there are laws on the books that REQUIRE manufacturers to make parts available for a minimum of 15 years after they stop building a machine. Deere still builds the majority of the wear parts found in the 4020, nearly 25 years after it went out of production. And there will always be that other source of parts - salvage yards. Most people think that electronics are pretty new on the tractor scene. Deere was using electronic sensors and instrument clusters on the 50-series, which have been around for 20 years. They give us few electronic problems. Anybody that doesn't wish to use electronic tractors is more than welcome to keep running old completely-mechanical ones. They're certainly nowhere near trouble-free, and are much closer to parts obsolescence than anything being built today. I work on everything from two-cylinders up to and including the 8000 Twenty Series, and there isn't a model in the bunch that doesn't have it's own unique challenges. I've been told by customers that now have nothing but 8000s for their big field tractors, that they can't imagine ever going back to, or how they enjoyed running 4640s and the like. To each his own.

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G-MAN

09-30-2003 17:10:17




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 Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel engines in reply to Dave, 09-30-2003 04:04:18  
I can't speak to those engines specifically, but electronic engines are becoming more and more common all the time, because of emissions requirements. Mechanical fuel systems simply cannot control the fuel well enough to meet the tough emissions guidelines. Electronic engines also generally offer easier starting, better efficiency, and generally outperform mechanical engines in every way. It will not be too many more years before there will be NO mechanical engines. The electronic systems themselves are getting very close to bulletproof. I work on a lot of JD 8000 series tractors, and they have been electronic from the get go. They give us very few problems. Maybe the occasional sensor failure, but even that is rare. It's almost unheard of for an electronic controller or pump to fail, but it does happen in rare cases. Speaking as someone with a lot of experience with them, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase an electronic engine - particularly from the extremely reputable builders like Deere, Cummins, Caterpillar (who owns Perkins), DDC etc.

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RJ-AZ

09-30-2003 18:22:52




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 Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel engines in reply to G-MAN, 09-30-2003 17:10:17  
If you are buying new there really is't any choice as to mechanical or electronic fuel. I believe all the major brands are now electronic. The new systems are working out real well, I have 140k on a GM 6.5 Turbo w/electronic fuel. I have never had a problem with the electronic fuel side. We have Ford, Dodge/Cummins, Mack and Cummins M11's in our state fleet and hardlet any electronic related problems.

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GM guy

09-30-2003 19:12:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel eng in reply to RJ-AZ, 09-30-2003 18:22:52  
Our family goes back to 1928 for owning gms for farm and liesure but that 6'5 turbo is a piece of crap along with the old 5.7 diesel from 78/79. Had an 81 5'7d and several 6.2s without any troubles. I still like gm/chev in case anybody is wondring lol!!



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RJ-AZ

09-30-2003 20:08:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel in reply to GM guy, 09-30-2003 19:12:48  
I didn't say that I liked the gutless wonder, only that the electronic fuel control has been trouble free. I drive it because it was the low bid for the state. As with all these GM diesels the only Guage you drive by is the temp guage. I worked in a GM dealership when we did a lot of work on the 5.7 and 6.2's under warranty and they are junk. Still got my old 65' Suburban with a 5.7/turbo 350 though.

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RJ-AZ

09-30-2003 20:07:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Perkins, Cummins electronic diesel in reply to GM guy, 09-30-2003 19:12:48  
I didn't say that I liked the gutless wonder, only that the electronic fuel control has been trouble free. As with all these GM diesels the only Guage you drive by is the temp guage. I worked in a GM dealership when we did a lot of work on the 5.7 and 6.2's under warranty and they are junk. Still got my old 65' Suburban with a 5.7/turbo 350 though.



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