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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

DIESEL QUESTION

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Allen

10-11-2003 11:26:35




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I have always had gas tractors and now have a MF 231S with the perkins diesel. My question is when I do a lot of low RPM work the engine seems to go to missing. Is it hard on a diesel to idle or run at low RPM. I put some fuel additive in my tank in case the miss is from injectors. YOur advice as always will be apprecited. Allen




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T_Bone

10-12-2003 01:10:11




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
Hi Allen,

Lugging a diesel engine is where your running WOT without gaining RPM at peak torque design or at a higher RPM.

"Lugging can occur at any RPM."

If lugging happens below design peak torque very often, it will tear the bottom out of the engine (read as very expensive to repair).

Read the Cummins engine website for the above explanation as I have not found another website that explains it better.

Wet Stacking is where carbon deposits are formed under the valves and/or in the valve seats. This doesn't allow for the valve to seat correctly on each stroke. Wet stacking occurs at low RPM and multiplies rapidly when the engine is under a lite load.

Depending on the engine design, most fuel efficency starts at 180* and peaks at 200* plus.

My PSD, DI engine, does not like prolonged idleing. When in lo-range, empty, creeping the backcountry for several hours it will load the cylinders up and there is a distink engine power degrade. I then have to rap it up for a couple minutes and she blows black smoke something terrible. At peak torque pulling 16k GCW it does not smoke at all, well that you can see in the mirrors anyway. It's a diesel, it smokes!

I also have a IDI diesel that can idle for 24hrs straight with out any signs of having any problems and it has 7500hrs on it.

I use Type F, ATF mixed at 1qt/50gal #2D, for a in-engine injector cleaner. A time proven method of 50yrs plus.

Injectors out of engine then I use Berryman B-12.

You might also look for an fuel suction air leak. Take the fuel tank return line off into a clean bucket and if the fuel stream has air bubbles in it, you have a suction air leak somewhere. You can also use the fliter drain on some engines and run that into a bucket.

A suction leak can occur on the pressure side as well as the vacumm side but will not drip fuel.

Cover each fitting, one at a time, with a heavy oil while observing the fuel flow. If the bubbles stop, you found your suction leak.

T_Bone

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Ray,IN

10-11-2003 20:46:32




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
All diesel engine mfgrs caution against prolonged low idling(truckers have a high idle setting); most specify prolonged idling as over 10 minutes, some longer. In cold weather an idling diesel engine is very inefficient, wasting fuel, and contaminating the engine oil with blowby (combustion byproducts), unburned fuel, and greatly increased condensation. The long accepted test for lugging an engine, gas or diesel, is to quickly open the throttle and observe engine response. If the engine does not gain rpm quickly you're lugging it, and should downshift or reduce the load as necessary. The long accepted practice of prolonged idling originated with diesel engines of the 50's and prior. These diesel engines were hard to start compared to todays diesels so when started were left running until the work or day was done.

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jdemaris

10-11-2003 18:21:34




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
I guess I'll have to dissent from the other opinions. Yes, a gas or diesel has a peak range of efficiency, and it's not at low idle speed. On the other hand, an engine that's well broken in and is in good enough condition to maintain adequate engine oil pressure at low speeds, will run fine at those low speeds. It might carbon up a bit, but that's about it. I won't bore you with countless stories and details, but I've known of diesels that were left idling for hours, sometimes days in extremely cold weather. Working the engine hard at low speeds, i.e. "lugging" is a different story, but I don't think that is what your were talking about. My diesel truck, when new, spent all day and every day, idling while the driver sat inside with the heater on. This went on for six years. I've got it, it's 17 years old and has 260,000 miles on it. I drive it on the highway ( I don't sit around and idle much) and it runs fine. My neighbor has a John Deere 4020 tractor, around 100 horse, and the machine has spent countless hours over the past 35 plus years, idling and running a log splitter, often all day long. It has not suffered a bit. I'd venture to say a diesel probably runs a bit better at low speeds than a gas engine, this because the diesel gets proper fuel delivery at any speed and is not subject to the variations or inconsistent air-fuel ratios that occur with carburetors systems. I suspect if your tractors skips a bit at low speed, it's caused by something specific, and not a general problem to be associated with diesels and "low speeds."

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buickanddeere

10-11-2003 18:14:10




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
Diesels are to be loaded between peak torque and peak HP rpm. Lugging down & losing rpm with the governor at full is to be avoided as well. Extended operation at low rpms also contributes to the engine running cold due to less heat from compression, and poor fuel burn effiency due to less swirl. Operation at less than 80% power increases thermal losses, loss of fuel efficiency due to stack losses. The diesel takes a full gulp of air every intake stroke. If the oxygen isn't used the heated air just goes up the stack. The fuel used to heat that unused air came from your tank.

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Kerry

10-11-2003 15:18:16




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
The best plan is to look at your tach and see where the 540 rpm PTO speed is, run it close to there or maybe a little below if you like. Don't lug it, and it's really designed to run at that rated PTO speed anyway. If you need to go slower (groundspeed), drop down a gear. If you need to turn the pto slower, like for a post hole digger, you'll just have to run it slow and it won't be a problem. Just don't make a habit of lugging it. It also keeps the fuel from burning properly and washes the oil off the cylinders.

Kerry

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SamH

10-11-2003 12:50:17




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
The rule with diesels, is "gear down and rev up". They are not designed to lug at low RPM.



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twopop

10-11-2003 12:18:05




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
a tractor engine,whether gas or diesel is made to run at governed rpm.at speeds less thangoverned speed they become more and more inefficent.one reason is that the engine temp.usually goes down,which in turn increases wear.under perfect conditions it would be best if the water temp. could be maintained at 220 degrees.even tho most over-the-road truckers let diesels idle for long periods,manufacturers have stated that it is not a good practice due to increased wear and fuel consumption.

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RAB

10-11-2003 12:10:59




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 Re: DIESEL QUESTION in reply to Allen, 10-11-2003 11:26:35  
When you say 'low rpm' I presume you mean on light load too. Diesels are happier/most efficient when under part load. This would almost certainly mean a lower gear and higher revs to avoid 'lugging'. You may well have an injector nozzle which is leaking and/or not spraying correcly. If this is the case, get your injectors cleaned/reset as any misfire is likely to lead to excessive bore wear and oil dilution. There may, of course, be other reasons for the problem - broken ring(s), valve clearances, valve seating, etc. The problem needs to be nailed down, as the long term outcome will likely be much more expensive.
Regards, RAB

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