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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

ROPS and liability??

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rem

01-04-2004 15:01:48




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Downloaded plans for fabricating a ROPS for my Ford 3000 and MF30 Industrial. Does the welding of a ROPS require a certified welder in order to cover my liability in the event a non-family member(neighbor borrowing the unit) gets injured or worse if the ROPS fails. Or should I just invest and purchase a factory certified ROPS for each respective tractor? Appreciate your thoughts and advice.




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rem

01-05-2004 04:52:59




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
Many thanks to all who responded.
Looks like I'm off to the local NH and MF dealerships. Hope I never have to test a ROPS.
Happy New Year!!!



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Dieselrider

01-05-2004 03:42:03




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
It sounds like the best thing to do, from reading all these posts, is put the rops system on your machine to satisfy yourself and then NOT loan the machine to anyone! You cannot protect people from their own stupidity, and you cannot gaurantee their family wouldn't blame you for it. Put it on for YOUR use and refuse to loan out the machine.



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Phil

01-04-2004 21:50:00




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
Not an attorney, but was once a heavy equipment claims adjuster..Not to open a can of worms here.. but haveing seen things in the court system and just in general in dealing with claims of various natures.

I can say it does not matter who builds it, who made it, nor who installed it. If there is an accident with loss and/or an injury results. No matter if it was properly secured, installed, factory built/installed by the equipment manufacturer, OSHA certified, etc. You will be liable. Anyone who ever laid a hand on that piece of equipment will be subject to some liability.

If the ROPS fails.. then the manufacturer can/will be held liable..If you have the machine maintained by a service dealer.. They may be subject to some liability. Whomever installs the ROPS or does any work on that structure.. ie mounting anything to it.. can be liable should it fail. Above all..YOU will be held liable just because you owned the tractor to which it was installed. It does not matter if you buy the ROPS from the equipment manufacturer or if you build your own from a set of quality plans and welded by a certified welder/shop.

If the person operating the machine is injured on YOUR piece of equipment.. He/she or thier family will be looking to you for compensation if it can be determined that the machine was at fault. However, even if the machine is not at fault and the "operator" does something stupid in it to cause the loss.. You still can have a percentage of liabilty. It could be argued that you failed to properly instruct that person in the operation of the equipment, etc. (I have seen this used) That is why the loss occurred.

Remember this.. in our litigious society. People look to someone else for blame for their stupidity. I am sure some of you can remember the big McDonald's settlement over the hot coffee in a woman's lap. McDonald's did not tell her to place the coffee in her lap while in her car. Her vehicle did have an appropriate cup holder. However, she did not use it and instead put the coffee cup between her legs. The cup spilled, burning a most private part of her body very badly. Pure stupidity on her part?, YES. Do not ever put hot liquids between your legs. Common sense tells most of us that this is a no no.

However, time and time again we have all placed something on our lap or between our legs. Just a momentary lapse of good judgement. Anyway, why did McDonald's lose? Because they failed to provide adequate warning to the public that thier coffee was hot.

I have adjusted claims that were clearly outside of the insured's insurance policy. Claims that were specifically denied by the policy. Things not even covered. Since most of us in society are not "deep pocketed". The Insurance Company will/would get sued, pulled into court.. They would spend thousands of dollars defending the case.. only to lose it anyway. (You all wonder why your insurance is so expensive these days.. frivolous lawsuits, insurance fraud, etc.)

WE all know.. in the end.. it will be whatever the Judge/Jury say..It matters not who does what or did what. If you can be found liable.. even a small percentage.. You can expect to pay.

I think no matter what route you take in your quest for a ROPS.. do it... The whole idea behind it is to make your tractor safer and that you will do by installing one. Forget about the liability aspect of it. That part is a crap shoot. Just install the ROPS.

Phil

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Wayne

01-05-2004 19:05:24




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 Re: Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to Phil, 01-04-2004 21:50:00  
I talked to a lawyer online a while back and he told me something new on the coffee deal. Bad thing about it was that her son, who was driving the car, caused the whole problem. Instead of pulling away from the drive through like he had some sense he gunned the engine causing her to spill it on herself. McDonalds main liability was they kept their coffee a few degrees hotter than the "industry standard". I always thought McDs was one of the first fast food joints, so it seems to me like they would be THE industry standard....But, hey, I'm not an attorney so what do I know.....

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Stan TN

01-05-2004 13:52:04




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 Re: Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to Phil, 01-04-2004 21:50:00  
Given all that Phil has said, why would a certified welder assume any part of your liability? Seems like he'd just refuse to weld up a rops.



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Wayne

01-04-2004 21:10:30




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
Dad used to mount them on the old AC and F/A construction equipment back in the 70s and 80s when OSHA had just started demanding them. He was working for the dealership and they had a customer come in one day and saw him welding on their machine mounting the new ROPS and asked if he was certified. The shop forman informed him that He-- no he wasn't certified, but he was Damm sure qualified. The matter was dropped right there.... Like the other posts said, the lawyers can have a field day over anything nowdays, they always have and always will. If your unsure about your welding skills then by all means don't try building one yourself, it might niot be safe. In that case go ahead with a factory model, and you know you can't go wrong. Still you better spend the money to have them "properly" mount it or once again your placing yourself in the liability zone because you mounted it and not the authorized dealer. Heck if you changed the tire yourself and it blew or came off causing them to wreck you'd be in the same boat..... liability nowdays knows no bounds..... ... However if your "qualified" to weld up one then I wouldn't worry about the liability issue because it will never come up. If it did then they would have just as much right to go back against the person who engineered the design... as they would you for using the design... as you would going against them for improper operation... as they would against you for letting them borrow the machine, etc etc etc etc etc Sometimes common sense and good judgement have to outweigh everything else. If more of that doesn't start happening soon this whole country is gonna grind to a stop because nobody is gonna be willing to make anything for fear of getting sued over it's missuse. If your sure of your 110% sure of your own abilities then go for it, if not then leave it up to the dealership. Just my .02

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George G

01-04-2004 15:29:28




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
Click on link bilow.



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john

01-04-2004 15:24:35




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
No lawyer but common sence tells me.....
Their lawyer would say
ROPS gave a false sence of security.
If weld would have been correct he would not have been injured.
Your lawyer would say
If operated correctly it would not have turned over.

If I were this worried I would not let any one borrow. Do what makes you feel safe based on your welding and metal ability but get one for sure.

With that said I would suggest you get only a factory certified ROPS for piece of mind as this is NOT something you can go back after the fact to get a proper strength and design one. But like I said I do not know your ability to make one.

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Brokenwrench

01-04-2004 15:22:06




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
It will require a certified welder, but then you are still liable if it fails because it was not an original equipment design with appropiate OSHA certification,nor was it OSHA tested and certified. According to my attorney, any non original equipment,or non OSHA certified ROPS is nothing more than a roof mounting bracket.I checked into my liability when a few customers asked about building them for older equipment.

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Pitch

01-04-2004 15:19:55




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 Re: ROPS and liability?? in reply to rem, 01-04-2004 15:01:48  
I would just purchase one from the dealer. I have seen mention that they will retrofit at cost. Remember with a ROPs you need to retrofit your seat with a prper belt.



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