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IH 450 pipe red runs rough

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Pat Carroll

02-02-2004 20:51:55

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I have a Farmall 450 gas. First noticed pretty good flame at muffler tip last fall. Ran pretty good but not like when i first got her. Now the manifold and muffler bright red. I have power loss and starts popping when it gets really warm. I changed the points because they were bad anyway. It seem to run better for a little while. It was hard to set the point gap because the dist shaft has play. If this is a retarded timing issue 1) how did it get retarded if I haven't played with the timimg 2)does the dwell effect the timing? Could the fuel mix be to rich and if so, what do I look for. Any advice would be apprciated

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buickanddeere

02-04-2004 07:24:03

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

It's common though the "flame" at the exhaust tip is buring gasses. Unless the mixture is grossly rich, not so. Combustion temps are well over 2000F and a red glow can be seen at 1300F. It's just the hot burned gasses you seen glowing at the exhaust tip.

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MT Pockets

02-03-2004 14:03:38

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

Pat, here's the first thing I would do if I were you.It won't cost a penney, and if it doesn't work, just undo it. Take a screwdriver, or whatever tool is necessary, and open the main jet on your carburetor exactly one complete turn(counterclockwise).That will make the fuel mixture richer. If it makes the engine smoke or run rough, turn the screw back in by quarter-turn increments. If nothing at all helps, go back to your original setting. But if opening the jet one turn helped some but didn't eliminate the flame completely,I would clean that carburetor. I hope this helps. Steve norwood.

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Jon H

02-03-2004 11:03:35

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

Dwell setting will not change timing enough to cause that kind of exhaust heating. You need to check ignition timing and advance operation. I suspect the advance mechanism is stuck allowing no spark advance or somthing in the dist drive gears is worn enough to retard timing a lot.
Get a timing light on it and check for proper timing and smooth advance as the engine rpm increases. Your operators manual will tell you what rpm to use when setting timing,and what the timing should be at low or high idle. Some set timing at low idle and others set at high idle with the advance fully in.

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buickanddeere

02-03-2004 06:19:22

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

Check the valve lash.

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old

02-03-2004 06:19:09

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

You could have a number of problems, running lean makes them hot, or it could have jumped time and that will really make the hot. If it is running as hot as you say you need to get it fixed asap what its doing can burn valves,burn holes in the piston and crack the head/manafold etc

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RAB

02-02-2004 23:08:07

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

1) The points lifting cam bears upon the distributor shaft. Wear can occur at that point, especially if it is not lubed properly.
2) The actuual opening (parting) of the points affects timing. Nothing to do with dwell. Dwell affects spark energy and if point opening duration is too short, then the points gap should be decreased and vice cersa. I would think that on a 4 pot motor operating at around 2000 rpm, dwell is not too much of an issue. However it would be an issue on an eight cylinder motor running at 4000+ rpm.
If play in dist is affecting spark gap, you have touble with it and should address this before failure. If it is only backlash you are referring to, it should not affect timing as it should always be timed by turning the engine in the direction of rotation. If you are that fussy with timing or can't do it that way, use a timing light (but check the advance curve, if it has one.
Yes, fuel mixture could be too rich. Look at the plugs tips and assess by colour/ deposits. Adjust carb as necessary. Could be caused by other issues such as valves. Have you checked clearances. Engines will always slowly 'go off tune'. That's why they all need serviceing at
regular intervals. They are not like the modern engine which needs much less intervention due to technology improvements.
Regards, RAB

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Bob

02-03-2004 06:28:36

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Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to RAB, 02-02-2004 23:08:07

RAB,

In "#2.)", you state "if point opening duration is too short, then the points gap should be decreased ". This is backwards. If the point opening duration is already too short, and you decrease the point gap, the points will open later and close sooner, so the point opening duration would become even shorter.

Dwell is a measure of the rotation of the distributor cam, in degrees, that the points remain CLOSED between each spark.

Dwell IS just as important on this low RPM tractor engine, because it is an indication of AVERAGE point gap, and, if you know the spec. for your engine, it allows the points to be set very accurately.

If you know the factory spec's for dwell, and set your points accordingly, the gap will be correct.

Another good feature of setting the points with a dwell meter is that there is no chance that any oil residue that may be on the your feeler guage is going to contaminate your new breaker points.

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RAB

02-03-2004 07:44:36

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Re: Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Bob, 02-03-2004 06:28:36

Sorry - meant closed. Too early in the morning and couldn't get back into it to change anything anyway!

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Bob

02-03-2004 08:12:52

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Re: Re: Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to RAB, 02-03-2004 07:44:36

That was me, yesterday morning, and it was all downhill from there. I'm having a couple of extra cups of coffee this morning, and taking it easy for a little while longer, before I go out and face the cold... -27 at 8:00 AM!

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Bob

02-02-2004 22:23:40

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

If point gap is too large, points open sooner, and timing is advanced. Dwell is lower than it should be.

If the point gap is too small, points open later, and timing is retarded. Dwell is higher than it should be.

If you can find the dwell spec. for the tractor, and have access to a dwell meter, this is the most accurate way to set the points. Then set the timing to spec.

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r4etired

02-03-2004 18:35:27

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Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Bob, 02-02-2004 22:23:40

Check the manifold gasket around the intake ports

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Don LC

02-02-2004 21:17:45

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Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Pat Carroll, 02-02-2004 20:51:55

Carefuly check the points gap.....now set the timming.....sounds lick your timming is retarted...yes dwell effects timing....

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Ray,IN

02-02-2004 21:51:08

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Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Don LC, 02-02-2004 21:17:45

I might add that a lean fuel mixture will cause this. Most old tractors will run rich unloaded by design to enable the fuel to assist in engine cooling under heavy load, so says my H.Ferguson owners manual.

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perry

02-03-2004 18:56:05

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Re: Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to Ray,IN, 02-02-2004 21:51:08

what about a plugged muffler????? i have a 14hp kohler doing the same thing,,,i still havent figured it out

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Bob

02-03-2004 21:28:16

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Re: Re: Re: Re: IH 450 pipe red runs rough in reply to perry, 02-03-2004 18:56:05

Do you have point ignition, or electronic ignition on your Kohler?

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