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Junk, or the next generation?

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Scott

02-18-2004 08:33:33

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Guy's I'm sure that I am not the only one to take notice of all of the new and upcoming brands of tractors that are currently on the market. Such as Mahindra, kiote, McCormick, Same, etc. So here is my question, with all of the new brands what affect do you think they will have on the big three manufactures in the next ten years? And also do any of you have any of these brands of tractors and how do you like them? There are mahindra, and mcCormick dealers poping up all over the place it seems like. From what little i have seen most of them appear to be well built and are very well priced, which leads to a tough decision if you are thinking of buying a tractor. Escpecially when you look at the price of used tractors. Sorry for the long post, but i am curious to see what you guy's think about the subject. Thanks and have a great day!

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dagreen

12-03-2004 08:20:01

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Scott, thanks for starting this post. Very valuable discussion for me, I"m looking at buying one of these new imports.

My first consideration is price, I"m 62 and won"t live long enough to recondition this tractor. Second, these manufacturers have been making big 3 parts, and tractors in some cases, and have a wealth of experience. The big 3 brand (name) is worth something and that"s what we pay the extra $$ for, like an insurance policy. And don"t forget when we have enough of these import tractors around there is going to be after-market companies willing to invest in parts.

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Fred OH

02-20-2004 10:21:02

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

The doorbell rang the other day and I was sitting here on the YTMAG board and it was my old schoolmate Jim...come on in...glad to see you. So after a little chat about other things we got back to the computer and tractors. Jim has been a life long (very successful) farmer. Jim was always very quiet in school and never made many waves but got good grades...anyhow, when we got around to the gray market tractors...he spoke up and said that his neighbors bought one and "run the h*ll out of it for years" and never did tear it up or have problems with it. From the boards experience with them...I didn't have a very good opinion of them. After he left I got to thinking about his statement and maybe I better find out more about the neighbor's tractor and post it for all concerned...if anyones interested??? Fred OH

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buickanddeere

02-19-2004 13:02:54

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Plain vanilla econo tractor are being made by the big three to compete in the "cheapest price" market. The Deere 5000'03, 5000'05, 6000'03,6000'15. The electronics are required to operate injection system to meet gov't emmisions, regulations so get used to them. The main problem is the average tinkerer has limited knowledge at best of electricity. It's considered by some to be nearly a black art. And there are people for reasons unknown think twisting two wires together and a wrap of tape is an acceptable wire termination.

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Robert in W. Mi

02-19-2004 08:28:53

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

First of all, most the so called NEW tractor brands you named aren't NEW at all. SAME for instance has been makeing tractors since the 20's.

Secondly, the smaller tractors aren't computer controled!!! Most of the posters here assume they are, and they aren't.

I have a couple of the newer tractors, and they are no harder to work on than the old ones. BUT, they have modern hydraulics on them, and 16 speed tranny with a shuttle, and MFWD. I bought a new tractor to get these features!

Yes, the big tractors over 100 hp are getting all computer controled, but the smaller tractors aren't. Both of my SLH (SAME built) tractors have been very reliable, and parts aren't a problem.

"If" i would have bought a John Deere made in India or china would it have been a better decision????? Keep in mind, none of the ag tractors made today under 100hp are made in the U.S.A. (except a couple speciality tractors)

Robert

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jdemaris

02-18-2004 18:01:50

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Mahindra tractors aren't something new. I have one that's over 40 years old and it's a good rugged tractor.

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chet

02-18-2004 14:18:08

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Mahindra 4500 4WD w/FEL, owned one year, has performed flawlessly, no plastic, no fancy electronics, solid ag tractor. Big three could not compete on price. Three year warranty (dealer stocks plenty of parts, not that I've needed any, but I did look through the parts inventory, he was glad to give me a tour) and three year ZERO percent financing. Sold. Don't bother lecturing me on resae value, it ain't fer sale.

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Brokenwrench

02-18-2004 14:15:19

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

The up and coming brands are serving a market previously dominated by used tractors. In my area there is no market for 8n Fords,MF35's JD's etc except for collectors. The people that would have shelled out $2500-$3500 for a used tractor are now flocking to the Kioti,Same or Mccormick dealerships. They can take their $3000 and put it down on a 30-50 HP 4wd with a loader,hydrostatic trans,power steering,rops etc. Typical tractor buyers here are transplanted city folk who have bought a farm,or farmette. They want the same comforts in a tractor that they have in their cars,most have no mechanical aptitude,and are happy to call the dealer for oil changes and blade sharpening,or a dead battery.Like was pointed out below,all the electronics are going to be the downfall of any of the new tractors. While all the safety switches,potentiometers,and computers added either by government mandate,or manufacturer design,serve laudible purposes,they are also a constant source of trouble as the machines get older and are exposed to the elements.After the machine is out of warranty,very few consumers are going to swallow a $2-3000 bill for diagnosis/repair or replacement of a fried computer and wiring harness,or electronic damage caused by corrosion or wear thru. The machine will be traded,or sold. I am seeing more and more of this now on 1990 and up tractors. Lights don't work,guages don't function,3pts and pto don't work. Worst one I've had was a high hour 7810 JD, used to load manure. It quit moving all together. While working on it I bumped the turn signal switch and the tractor would move-stop-move-stop-move-stop.... Found it was caused by the wiring harnesses rotted by manure and rubbed thru under the cab and shorting together. $1250 worth of new harnesses,connector repair kits,and other parts,35 hours of labor to find the problem,remove the cab to fix it, clean harness connectors and put the cab back on.Ain't technology great!

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del

02-18-2004 13:27:53

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Some of these makes have been in the United States for awhile. Mahindra made tractors for Internationl, McCormich made certain CIH tractors, some models of Massey's were made by a company naned Tafee if I'm not mistaken. This started in the early eighties. I enjoyed seeing the 20 series JD mentioned. I run a 4020 and a 4320 and have a couple of friends who still run 4020's. The 3020's and 4020's along with the International 806's thru the 1066's, Oliver 50 and 55 series were real tractors in my book.

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4020dt

02-19-2004 04:24:10

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Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to del, 02-18-2004 13:27:53

I agree , del , I have a 3020 & 4020 , both Diesel powershift , 1964's , makes them 40 yrs old now . 3020 has a 148 loader , use it daily moving round bales , manure loading , grinding feed , snow removal etc and all the other chore jobs around here . I overhauled it in 1971 , I rebuilt the injection pump a year ago , that's about all that has been done to it . Tractors from that time were simple , rugged , easy to work on and there isn't anything I can't fix on them , try that with these newer electronic wonders . For me I do not need a computer or other electronic gadgets to shift my gears and run my hydraulics . Newest row crop tractor I have is a 4840 , still simple by todays standards . Tadays Tractors , what will it cost to keep them running 40 years if they run that long????

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Jonathan

02-18-2004 12:39:50

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Yeah I'm surprized myself at how many brands have been popping up, but Kioti and Same have been around for awhile, those are not new. I do wonder like G-man said about service and parts availibility. I firmly believe you get what you paid for and you don't get something for nothing. I do kinda wonder about the electronics on the new tractors, I'm wondering how well they will stand up to years and years of farming before sealed components age and the sealant lets go etc... Actually, I know NH recently produced a tractor without all the fancy stuff on it, I believe it was around 50-60hp, (model 6610S? I think). I think we may see more tractors with less electronics to follow, but only if they sell well of course. I have been told its either CNH or JD that now has like a black box on them so that when a serviceman plugs in his computer, he knows exactly how many times the tractor has been stalled, how long the tractor has been idled, how long at full throttle, etc... I don't think the big three are on their way out though, because thats still what all the farmers are buying atleast around here, they really can't afford to buy a new tractor, but they really really can't afford to buy a piece of junk either. However Kubota is really growing in popularity and I'd say they are giving them a good run for their money all the way up to 120HP.

Heres another brand I didn't know about until yesterday.

enjoy

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JUNK

02-18-2004 11:27:51

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

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rhouston

02-18-2004 11:21:24

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

I think you'll see the same thing the automakers are seeing. When they first joined the auto market the "cheap imports" were not taken seriously, but they sure are now. IMHO Ford, Chevy and Chrysler are living on borrowed time. in ten years the big 3 in tractors will also be in that boat. seems as how when a company gets large and successful they forget who got them there and why. This is the time an underdog comes in and eventually pushes the unseeing larger Corp into the has-been category.

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G-MAN

02-18-2004 10:47:44

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

You do see more of these short-line dealers popping up, and it begs a very important question. What sort of parts and service are you going to get? As a Deere tech, I KNOW how hard it's getting for even well-established Big 3 dealers to find and keep good parts and service people. I can't imagine how hard it is for some new short-liner to get and keep decent people. Not to mention that I don't know what kind of factory training and support they're going to get. The Big 3 have well established training networks and support and it's still a problem getting everybody trained in what they need to know. I think a lot of those small short-line dealers will be staffed by regular Joes off the street and whatever shadetree mechanics or Jiffy-Lube rejects they can find. The quality of parts and service support makes or breaks a dealer. I'll be surprised if half of them are still in business in ten years, while there are Big 3 dealers that have been around for generations. My two cents and something to ponder.

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Nebraska Cowman

02-18-2004 10:32:46

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

maybe this is off topic but i was thinking the other day, with the technolgy that we have there is no reason we couldn't produce throw away cars that would run 100k and never do anything ecept put gasolene in them. keep the body style simple and they could be produced for less than $5000
i guess tractors could be the same way and maybe some if these imports are. when they wear out there will be noting left to fix. We live in houses built the same way. 2x4 rafters and plywood roof, what happens in 20 years when the shingles need replaced? will the sheating hold nails again? so you tear that off? what about those rafters? just bulldoze and start over. i think I'll keep my old tractors just in case.

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Chuck MA

02-18-2004 20:46:58

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Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 02-18-2004 10:32:46

We have already been through that(throw away cars)in the late 60's and the 70's. The big three were cranking out junk that would barely last a couple of years without major breakdown. That's why Toyota has become the largest car seller in the US. All my vehicles are from US Companies. Two GM's Blaser and Sunbird, one Dodge Ram, one '57 Case 310 and a Deere 140 L&G.

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Jared in VT

02-18-2004 17:28:48

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Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 02-18-2004 10:32:46

Cowman, Always the cranky innovator, I love the car idea. At 100k you could trade her in (recycle) and start over. They could recondition the trade-ins and sell them again for 3 grand. Repower them for gas or cooking oil or whatever. Great idea. You are right there on the houses. Often it's not even plywood on the roof; OSB, wafer board. When I stripped the roof on my 220 year old farm house, I just renailed the 1x14x20' chestnut sheathing to the 8x8x22' oak rafters. Good for another 200!
Jared

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Ben in KY

02-18-2004 11:13:10

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Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 02-18-2004 10:32:46

One thing on those plywood roofs. My house has 1 inch rough sawn lumber on its roof ( mostly oak ). Harder than heck to pull nails out of. I would rather re-roof a plywood roof anyday, but then I don't have to worry about my roof caving in if a tree limb falls on it either :)

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Robert in W. Mi

02-19-2004 08:10:25

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Re: Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Ben in KY, 02-18-2004 11:13:10

I reroofed my "ply wood roof" home a couple years ago. There was some water damage from letting the old roof go to long so i fixed that, and had new shingles put on. I can't see where there's anything wrong with ply wood roofs!! I got 35 years out of the first shingles, (20 yr rated) and went back on with 40 year rated shingles. The next roof will be some one elses problem!!!

Robert

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Ben in KY

02-19-2004 09:18:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Robert in W. Mi, 02-19-2004 08:10:25

Yep plywood roofs are fine as long as they are nailed on good not stapled. I was wishing for plywood on my roughcut board roof about the third day of stripping off old shingles. Plywood would have been done in one day. All of those dang seams kept catching on the roofing shovel and the nails had to be almost all pulled by hammer. If I did roofing for a living I would charge 2X for a board roof over plywood.

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Gary in TX

02-18-2004 10:32:32

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

this is my opinion on the new tractors for whatever its worth to anyone. I really don't like em. A tractor is a tool, its made to work, all this electronic crap don't make plow, plant, mow, rake or bale any better than tractors made 30 years ago. Now they are putting the gps systems on em, auto guidence and all this crap. Really makes me sick, I can see it in places where you might have 1000 acre fields but not in our area. I think this is why your seeing these companies filling in the gap. Honestly though I wouldn't have one of them. I am running late 70's tractors(4430 and 4230) adn a mid 60's 3020 and a 135

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Ben in KY

02-18-2004 09:57:32

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

Too much plastic and aluminum and electronics to be able to restore them 20 - 30 years down the road. They will have a useable life and then be junk. Just my opinion though.

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SB in AR

02-18-2004 09:40:55

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Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Scott, 02-18-2004 08:33:33

You must have been in Louisville, KY last weekend. :)
My Father and I were talking about that also, its almost like the 1920's - 1930's when there were so many tractor manufacturers around. I think that these manufacturers have noticed what I've been saying for years. The Big Three (JD, CNH, & Agco) have forgotten about the small farmer, and/or the "Estate Owner". Those of us who want a new version of a "4020". Powerful, Simple, etc. But I'm not sure if they've got the reliability and/or quality. I've not had any experience using any of them.

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Mike M

02-18-2004 10:42:18

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Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to SB in AR, 02-18-2004 09:40:55

I can't keep up with all the merges lately but I think that CNH & AGCO are one and the same.I also think MF may be part of them. So I count the big 2 JD and AGCO I just remembered one more thats doing good
Kubota

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SB in AR

02-18-2004 11:28:59

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Re: Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to Mike M, 02-18-2004 10:42:18

I couldn't make it to L.R. Farm Show. I had to go to Missouri, to look at a couple of prospective project tractors. But Dad an dI have been going to the Farm Show in Louisville, KY nearly every year for about ten years, and I continue to be amazed at the number of tractor manufacturers ther e are. Also, everybody and their brother makes rotary cutters (bush hogs)!!

CNH is Case & New Holland

AGCO is MF, White, AGCO-Allis (sold Deutz part to Fahr, its now Deutz-Fahr), Challenger (you know, the Cat Ag tractors), Fendt, Gleaner, Heston, New Idea, Sunflower, Glencoe, Valtra, Hesston, RoGator, Spra-Coupe, TerraGator, Tye, & Willmar. They also are the ones that bought a closed Oliver, Minn-Moline, & Cockshutt, and there may be others.

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Robert in W. Mi

02-19-2004 08:14:59

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to SB in AR, 02-18-2004 11:28:59

Deutz or Deutz Fahr are NOT part of AGCO.

Also Valtra is now part of AGCO

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Scott

02-18-2004 09:46:44

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Re: Re: Junk, or the next generation? in reply to SB in AR, 02-18-2004 09:40:55

That's funny that you reply, I live in south Arkansas(MOnticello). But i was at the Farm expo in Little Rock two weekends ago, so many toys and so little time. I think you are right on the money though. Many of us could really use a new "4020" and don't need all the bells and lights of many of the new tractors. I noticed at the expo a deere dealer had a 6420 c/a with fwa sitting outside the colusium and the sticker said $48,000 dollars! Most all farmers already have atleast 1 job other than farming, and with tractor prices like that you have to. thanks for the replies.

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