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Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere)

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Mike (WA)

05-18-2004 08:28:59

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We're not hearing any rumblings about moving to alcohol as a fuel in this latest version of the fuel crisis. Last time around, my recollection is that the break even price for replacing gasoline with alky was around $1.65, which has certainly been surpassed now. There were some problems with dissolving fuel system parts, but I would think it would be fairly straightforward to replace the few items that are vulnerable. I was even excited enough about it at one point to get a catalog from the "Little Revenoor" folks, who made still kits of various sizes. There is no truth to the rumor that I was actually interested in making white lightnin'.

As is always the case, there are denizens of these boards who have far more expertise than I, so how about it? Why no push for alcohol fuel? And why are the Seattle Mariners so pathetic this year? Was trading for Rich Aurilla a mistake? So many questions. . .

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George

05-19-2004 04:12:13

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

Over the years I have heard that the Germans in the latter part of WWII made synthetic oil, but I have never heard what they did. Can anyone shed light on this?

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buickanddeere

05-19-2004 06:46:15

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to George, 05-19-2004 04:12:13

The WWII German war machine gave the rest of the world a heck of a run without domestic crude oil. They converted coal into synthetic gasoline, kerosene and lube oils. South Africa updated the process when embargoed in the 80's. As for the "Chicken Littles" who think the sky is falling with dwindling fossil fuels. I wish they would just shut up and buzz off.They know nothing. For a modest price that will diminish with volume production. The world's enormous and virtually un tapped coal reserves can be converted to synthetic fuel along with hydrogen from nuclear, frozen methane hydrates from the ocean floor, and extraction of Alberta's Tar Sands. There is no energy crisis. It's just what it will cost. Demand is up because the developing third world is trying to copy the US energy consumption per person. New oil fields are smaller and more difficuilt to transport oil from. Drives the price up, where is the suprise in that?

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Ray

05-19-2004 08:33:39

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Re: Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock some in reply to buickanddeere, 05-19-2004 06:46:15

It is the money that drives all the fuel issues, but more basically, if it costs more in energy to extract the gallon of fuel than the fuel contains, then we will be out of fuel. Some of the deeper oil fields are reaching that limit, but those in the Middle East cost very little to pump, so they set the standard, depending on their pumping capacity and how soon they are willing to pump them out.

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Jon

05-18-2004 13:10:33

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

Here in TN there is still some old fashioned distilling going on. I have not tried it, but was wondering if these new fuel distillers would get the job done to produce some "old" product (just for medicinal use of course? Any experience out there? Thanks, Jon

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05-19-2004 18:11:15

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to Jon, 05-18-2004 13:10:33

Waverly area yet? RN

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Wayne

05-18-2004 19:10:40

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to Jon, 05-18-2004 13:10:33

Hey Ron, I've got some inlaws up in the mountains on the NC side of the line, around Johnas Ridge, I know for a fact there is still some "medicinal brewing" going on around there. I haven't had the nerve to try the stuff, but I do know where where there is at least one quart just waiting to be finished off..... ..

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Thomas

05-18-2004 12:43:49

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

Do you have any take up of Bio Diesel in the US? It has great potential in Europe due to the large number of diesel users, but the UK government have refused to reduce the duty on Bio Fuels so it remains a non starter. Just out of curiosity, why the obsesion with petrol engines in the US? I wouldn't entertain anything but a Turbo Diesel now, petrol engines are thirsty and slugish in comparison!

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HY_Moose

05-18-2004 18:51:08

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to Thomas, 05-18-2004 12:43:49

Around here Most Gas is already 10% corn liquor. As for Diesel I have a brother that is that is President of a Bio Diesel group looking to make soy diesel. The Advantages are. 1 The use of local crops so it saves on trucking and helps the farm prices. 2 By product is soymeal that the local farmers use for livestock feed. 3 good low polution fuel 4 stop exports 5 local jobs The staring of any company is a major undertaking but then You have EPA regulations with the fuel, zoning restictions because of all the trucks. I think this would be a huge task but I hope it goes.

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49 Cubber!

05-18-2004 12:40:58

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

great granpappy did that for years!Of course he sold more of it than he put in his engines,and drunk even more than that.I remember Dad telling me about going to "get gas" for him when my Dad was growing up,but dont know if he mixed it or used it straight!Judging by some of the holes in the gas tank on his old F12,Id say straight!

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big fred

05-18-2004 12:35:26

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

Mike, since nobody else has addressed the second part of your question, I will. I think the Mariners are doing just great. I really miss the old days with Greg "Pee-Wee" Briley and Henry "Turbo" Cotto. Back then the M's couldn't buy a win, but you could go to the Kingdome and get a ticket the day of the game and get really good seats. Lest you think I ain't much of a fan, I was there for the entire '95 post-season, shoutin' my lungs out, and lovin' every minute of it, but there's just something nice about having room to spread out and relax while you're watching a ballgame. :o)

Oh, yeah, gotta keep this tractor related. I really like that JD that they haul the batting practice backstop around with...

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Mike (WA)

05-19-2004 08:12:03

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to big fred, 05-18-2004 12:35:26

I think we are fast returning to those halcyon days of "walk up, buy a ticket"- a friend went to last nights game, and noted an abundance of empty seats. I hadn't thought of Pee-Wee Briley in years. I always liked Eric Hanson, who threw the biggest "rainbow" 12 to 6 curve in the history of the game.

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Mike(Wi)

05-18-2004 12:28:21

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

I am all for looking at any alternatives. I think that Ethanol/Alky has a lot of potential that we haven't even begun to realize yet.

On a related note, I read somewhere that we might have figured out how to manufacture our own oil. It had something to do with subjecting organic matter to high pressure--kind of like the way that we can synthesize diamonds.

Whatever the case may be, I am sure that we are smart enough to find some solutions to the problem. Then we won't have to deal with the Mid East anymore.

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JMS/MN

05-18-2004 11:57:23

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

Alcohol fuels got a bad reputation years ago when methanol was produced- it was the one that cleaned up the garbage that lined your gas tanks and plugged the carburetor. Ethanol is the current state-of-the-art alcohol product being produced by ADM, and like paul says- the many farmer-owned coops in Mn and elsewhere. Our coops (like the one our family invested in- one of two in MN that has yet to make a profit!) provide a miniscule amount of ethanol compared to the ADM plant, but it is a good alternative to foreign oil. The two bucks per gallon we pay now for gas doesn't tell the true cost of fuel- even without the value you place on the lives lost with Mideast oil- what is the gasoline/diesel cost per gallon when figuring our defense expenditures to protect our supply system? We can be self-sufficient on fuel with home-grown alternatives, whether the ethanol come from corn, cornstalks, (or other carbohydrate sources like precious swamp cattails), or sugar, etc.

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KURT (mi)

05-18-2004 10:44:49

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

I am not sure of this so correct me if I am wrong. A gallon of Gasoline has twice the energy amount as a gallon of Alcohol. Is this true? If it is true then gas has to be half the price of Alcohol to break even.

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Mike (WA)

05-18-2004 12:19:13

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to KURT (mi), 05-18-2004 10:44:49

I don't recall the exact number, but the loss of energy isn't nearly 50%- I'm thinking its about 15%. Also, the alcohol burns much more efficiently in a warmer engine (so its back to shutters, ala the old distillate tractors of umpteen years ago?). I guess I do foresee a problem with today's drivers watching the guage and adjusting the shutters, but I guess it could be automated, thereby giving us something else thats too complicated to fix.

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Paul in Mich

05-18-2004 11:34:41

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to KURT (mi), 05-18-2004 10:44:49

Kurt, It is.....Have you priced a gallon of Jack Daniels lately? And as to the energy aspect, I havent tried gasolene, but Jack Daniels makes me want to go to sleep. No energy whatsoever.

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mud

05-18-2004 12:18:45

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Re: Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock some in reply to Paul in Mich, 05-18-2004 11:34:41

dam son if that ain't a reply! i'm still holdin my ribs from hootin.

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Joe (Wa)

05-18-2004 10:38:25

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

The problem is that as soon as a cheaper fuel is developed, the price of the key component part skyrockets. You're better off just drinking the alky while it is affordable.

I was just on the verge of perfecting the first gas-milk hybrid engine and now look at where the price of milk is going.

Nope. You just can't win.

Joe

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paul

05-18-2004 10:36:00

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

We have about 15 farmer-owned ethanol coop plants here in Minnesota. A 10% blend is mandated in nearly all gasoline sold in this state. E-85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) is available at gas stations about every 50 miles (or less) in my part of the state anyhow.

A 2% blend of soybean oil in diesel fuel will be mandated in a year (or 2?) in this state also, ramping up to 5% shortly after. Many folks are already getting their own blend up to 20%.

Isn't everybody doing this???? What not?

--->Paul

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Coloken

05-18-2004 09:17:45

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

Being farmer oriented, I'd like to see alcohol used. I believe that all problems on gaskets etc. was taken care of years ago. Modern seals are OK. The old rubber stuff was not. During the last "shortage" I did a lot of rsearch on making my own. Making to drink or stronger was easy. Getting the last bit of water out to 100 percnt was nearly imposible in a home type process. Colo State U proved that diesels can run part alcohol too. Forgot the details but think they ran up to about 30/40 percent. Some talk of a plamt here in Weld county Co. Hope its not just talk. Would sure make the corn farmers happy.

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Farmered

05-19-2004 04:39:09

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to Coloken, 05-18-2004 09:17:45

Coloken, I worked on a project a Colo. State U. that used 100% vegie oil in the crankcase. We were using it in a 1200cc air cooled VW engine on a plot combine. When our trials ended we had several hundred hours on it with no problems. I think it actually ran cooler. The formula was a secret but it was mostly canola oil. I liked the way the engine smelled when it was running, sort of like baking cookies. Probably not a good idea but I used to freak people out by licking the dipstick when checking the oil.

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Mike (WA)

05-19-2004 08:08:06

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Re: Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock some in reply to Farmered, 05-19-2004 04:39:09

Several have used deep fryer oil from fast food restaurants for "bio-diesel"- biggest problem is the operator is always hungry because the exhaust smells like french fries.

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HY_Moose

05-18-2004 19:09:28

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Re: Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock some in reply to DL, 05-18-2004 17:13:56

DL, Tell your teachers to do the homework before they open their uniforned mouths. I live just south of the ADM plant that makes Ethanol. #1 the corn is not waisted, When the the trucks dump the corn they return to my family's farm with corn Glute meal( The left over mash) for cattle feed. I have heard that some of them have quit using it because the price has gotten to high probably because the pet food industry is also buying it. If the farmers and pet food companies did not use this by product the animals still must eat so they would feed some other form of corn or soy or what ever. #2 The left over heat and carbon deoxide is used in green houses to grow food. So tell the tree huggers that Adm is not taking food off anyones table they are just reducing the air pollution and saving our oil supplies for the next generation. Also I have taken old tires to an EPA pickup day and they were taken to ADM to be mixed with limestone and burned for fuel. I don't know how this works but the epa says that it is safe and gets rid of the old tires.

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rustyfarmall

05-18-2004 08:48:55

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Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewhere) in reply to Mike (WA), 05-18-2004 08:28:59

I am already using the 10% ethanol blend in everything I own, including my 1940s Farmalls. I have had no problems at all with the fuel dissolving any of the system parts, except maybe for the crud which builds up in the old tanks. Overtime the ethanol will clean that stuff out. I see no problems at all with producing even more of this fuel, and there is no reason that I know of that the big oil companies couldn't manufacture it. It gets my vote.

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mud

05-18-2004 12:32:20

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Re: Re: Time for Alcohol? (It's 5 o'clock somewher in reply to rustyfarmall, 05-18-2004 08:48:55

i like what you said. i would like to see small coops produce the stuff and the h&ll to all those big corporate shitzs. thats what i think anyway.

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