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A new one on me......

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Wayne

06-07-2004 16:43:19

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Hey ya'll I thought I'd seen a good amount of stupidity in my day but what I saw today tops it all. Dad and I run a heavy equipment repair business that consists of just the two of us. We work on alot of the old friction cranes and as a result pick up alot of work for bigger companies/quarries that still use them for dragline work. We got a package today from one of our bigger customers that is trying something new.....registering all of their venders, suppliers, etc. This registration is through a third party that we now will have to send all of our company information, including MSHA paper work, insurance informaton, etc etc etc. Basically they want copies of everything but your birth certificate...and I don't see that as being far behind after this. Supposidly alot of big corperations are going to this to save themselves from all the paperwork hassels associated with all the different vendors coming in individually at their different plants, etc to insure they all meet the "companies criteria" for a vendor. Heck I always thought if the criteria for qualification was that you knew your job, did it right, and the customer was happy. I never heard of anybody needing a third party to tell you that the man that's been keeping your equipment up for 5 years was actually able to do the job he was already doing. This is the kind of stuipe sh-- a colledge educated idiot, wearing a suit, sitting behind a desk does to the construction industry..... .. Now here's the kicker..... ...WE HAVE TO PAY TO FILE WITH THE THIRD PARTY. Basically it amounts to us having to pay for the privledge of working on this customers equipment. We're gonna have to pay right at $600 per year to stay in this oufits files yet they provide no actual service to us, beyond hanging onto our paperwork for the customer to access easily. If we're gonna continue to work for them we have no choice but to file. What is really funny though is how much does this corporation think it's gonna save each year by doing this. Now all they have to do is keep about 6 sheets of paper on file for us at one plant showing MSHA and insurance info. That's a once a year thing for the office guy to hand us the papers and for us to sign them and him to refile them...about 5 minutes or maybe $10 max out of their pocket. Now that 5 minutes is gonna cost them a minimum of $600, at least from us, and I imagine from many of their other suppliers also. Does somebody in that company actually think any of their vendors is gonna pay out money like that and not charge it back to them in some way????If they do their crazy..... In the end that means us/other vendors raising our rates, the customer raising their prices to pay for the vendors increaseses, and in the end higher prices for the consumer..... ..In the future when you wonder why things in the US cost so much, look at all the BS the corporations highly educated management throw down and you'll realize that the old saying is true..... .Sh-- always rolls downhill.....and the consumer is always at the bottom..... ....

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26Red

06-09-2004 09:26:27

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

Welcome to coporate America. Next they'll be asking if you accept a corporate credit card for payment...it's the latest rage in accounting to reduce paperwork-which in reality, it gets pushed back on the engineers, techs, and the other people who are way too busy to be filling out useless paperwork!

My advice, get certified, and then charge the stupid fee back to the customer...better yet, double it!

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wdtom

06-08-2004 18:53:33

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

The companyI work for got all this ISO, QS 9000 crap. It has made a bunch of stupid regulations everyone has to follow. It looks to me like it is supposed to be a way for people (management who don't know anything) who don't know a good product or company to be able to think they do now because it is "certified".

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buickanddeere... it reduc

06-08-2004 15:22:06

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

ISO is required for accounting of the product. Right back to the warehouse, shippers, who installed it on what day, if there were any problems, the day and production run the part was manufactured made on, the staff on duty and right back to what foundry the base metal came from and the alloy batch. Tracks the training and experience of the staff. Also lets other potential customers know if a shop is prone to making messes. It's required when there is a failure to trace back to the cause. Particularly vital when trying to compete in the over seas market, aviation, ships, aircraft, military and nuclear industries. A pattern of failures usually comes back to one person who didn't do their job correctly. Wish there had been ISO controls on the garage that broke the windshield, heater ductwork, distributor, fender trim and then bashed the valve train on a bonzzi run. And on the machine shop that rebuilt truck engine five after using the wrong bolt in the oil pump, wrong bearing in the balancer shaft, machined the rocker pedestals too short, ground the lash nuts short and reused the same sprung/ruined lash nuts even though I bought short pushrods to compensate for their screw up.

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big fred

06-08-2004 18:38:41

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Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to buickanddeere... it reduc, 06-08-2004 15:22:06

Military, yes. After all, the government loves additional bureacracy. Aviation? Well, I tell ya, I work at one of the largest airplane makers in the world, our defense and aerospace divisions are ISO 9001 registered, but our commercial airplane division is not. It's a matter of much humor here. :o)

BTW, it doesn't mean that the commercial division doesn't have the processes and records needed for traceability, after all, the FAA requires it and the airline customers demand it. It's just that they haven't made a convincing business case for it yet. Why is the defense division ISO 9001? Only because our customer is the Federal Government.

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buickanddeere

06-08-2004 20:56:59

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Re: Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to big fred, 06-08-2004 18:38:41

The ISO is a common standard so that there needs no translation of expectations between companies and countries. It certainly is good to get a service bulletion telling us a certain batch of e.g. valves are duds. Saves installing duds or having to suffer a rash of failures by repacing them before they leak/break.

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tlak

06-08-2004 03:58:13

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

The way I understood ISO is so we could play in the international market but are we the only ones doing ISO?

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Davis In SC

06-07-2004 20:52:51

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

We share a building & do lots of business with a company with ISO certification.... They want us to get it , too, I told them sure , but shop labor rate will double...They stopped pushing me to get certified then. I have seen firsthand that it is a hindrance,not a help. The only benefit it has is to get business from other ISO companies. Flipside is that these are usually difficult customers to deal with. The kind with "Educated Idiots " in charge..... Regards. Davis

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Wayne

06-07-2004 19:47:12

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

Your right it is all a massive pile of sh--. The company we're working for is a sand quarry, their only product is rocks and sand....what kind of ISO cetrification do you need on dirt??? As for the "is this real or a scam" question, Dad was down there last week doing some work for them and was told there was something new and to be expecting the paperwork which is what I saw today. Like one post said we're still gonna get work, be it from them or somebody else that needs a reputable mechanic, regardless of wether we fill out the paperwork or not. The main reason we started working for this outfit is they had already had other "yahoos" in there "repairing" their crane and all they did was screw it up because they didn't know what the he-- they were doing. That's why we got called in the first place because we know what we are doing and know how to do it right. Not to mention we're the only ones I know of in our area doing with the knowledge and equipment to do this kind of crane work. Let them call in somebody else to "fix" their Murphy engine...when the operator finds out we're not doing it he's gonna be pi--ed because he's about sick of the stupid BS they've done already. When he walks it's gonna leave them with a broke machine and no operator to run it.....It comes down to the saying they can pay us now or they can pay us later..... ..and it's gonna cost them A WHOLE LOT MORE LATER..... Maybe the "suppliers" in the market need their own orginazation that will verify that the customer is safe enough to work for, will pay their bills on time, and will just generally stay the he-- out of your way and let you do your job when your working for them. We could come up with a fancy name for our orginization and charge all the big corporations for the priviledge of having us work for them..... ....of course that might be considered extortion...LOL

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UFO Man

06-07-2004 18:20:14

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

This is a newer trend in business. It started with safety programs that had to be sent to and approved by the third party...if they didn't aprove your work, they would help you re-write your safety plans...for a fee.

Be thankful that you don't do pipeline work.

We do a little, so we paid a $2000 membership fee to the records company and $100 to $350 per test that our guys have to take to be certified. Some of them have to take 10 or more tests. TESTS, mind you, not the training, just the tests! And for that ANNUAL membership fee, the test results are available to our clients.

Wish I'd thought of it first, but then it would have been considered extortion.

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rustyfarmall

06-07-2004 18:06:37

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

This sort of thing has been going on for several years now, for lack of a better word, and to keep from being censored, I will call it a scam. The official name for it is ISO 9000, 9001,etc. There are several different versions of it. Basically it is a service, it has been marketed towards all manufacturing companies, and it is quite costly to be a member. Supposedly, if you don't join, then your company will be blackballed, and you will not do any more business with any company that does belong. Does this sound vaguely familiar? Did I hear someone say MAFIA? What it all boils down to is a bunch of ****, and as far as I know, no one has ever been blackballed. The good, reputable companies such as yours will continue to get work, and for the same companies you work for now. If I was you, I would not waste my time with it. Oh, by the way, this whole ISO 9000 thing is supposed to guarantee a higher level of quality in the product being manufactured, and we all know which way quality has gone in the last 10 or 15 years, which is just about the same time as ISO 9000 came on to the scene.

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paul

06-08-2004 21:59:57

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Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to rustyfarmall, 06-07-2004 18:06:37

I always wondered what the ISO stuff stood for. See the signs, saw some discussion years ago how it didn't garentee good product, only that all product was equally bad.... But no explination of what it was.

Thank you for a clear & to the point explination.

--->Paul

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Kelvin

06-07-2004 19:32:47

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Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to rustyfarmall, 06-07-2004 18:06:37

I encountered that ISO 9000 stuff when I was a draftsman. As far as I could tell it did not ensure that your company could actually produce a quality good or service, It only forced you to keep records (sometimes rediculously redundant records) to track problems with your parts/services should any occurr.

I figured then (1996) in 5-6 years some other company without all this rediculous record keeping expense would lowbid us out of the market. Betcha they don't do this in China!

OH-my job at one of those companies? Because the 9000 manual stated that all parts on all the drawings should be drawn with red lines, I spent all summer making new drawings with RED lines from old drawings with GREEN lines. At $12/hour, it would have saved about $6,000 to rewrite the stupid manual.

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Jeff

06-07-2004 20:37:48

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Re: Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Kelvin, 06-07-2004 19:32:47

Yep we were told we had to be certified ISO 9002 or we would be losing business from some of our major customers as thier bean counters said all suppliers had to be certified. Now mind you we have been supplying some of these companies with parts for 20 years. We hired a man o do all of the ISO crap, had people come in and help him figure it all out, got the certification. Then cusomers started pulling jobs out and sending them to Chine ,In a round about way the great American company Harley Davidson is included. We supplied parts for them to one of thier suppliers and after abou a year and half we were told to literally ship the tooling to Indochina.

As for the ISO and quality, ours didn't improve because of it but it sure takes longer now to run parts because of all the redundant paperwork that has to be done. I don' have a problem keeping good records but they get way overboard on that crap.

I always said that the person who started all of the ISO certification crap had a cousin or nephew or something that needed a job so one was created.

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rustyfarmall

06-07-2004 19:38:00

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Re: Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Kelvin, 06-07-2004 19:32:47

Yep, pretty much the same experience I had with it. We spent so much time documenting what we were doing that we really didn't have time to pay attention to the product we were making. But we had a ton of paperwork to prove that we were doing quality work.

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kyhayman

06-07-2004 20:18:05

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Re: Re: Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to rustyfarmall, 06-07-2004 19:38:00

Hey rusty, this is the 'way of the future'. DOesnt matter if you do anything, as long as you document it. I've worked for various government agencies for the better part of 15 years, ever year it is more documentation. They dont really care what I do anymore as long as the paper work documenting that I didnt do it is in order. It gets so frustrating.

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txblu

06-08-2004 08:28:19

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A new one on me...... in reply to kyhayman, 06-07-2004 20:18:05

I worked for a National Laboratory for a short while. Since they worked with nukes, safety was paramount.

I remember one day I was supervising a job and said to myself: I can't get the job done for worrying about safety. It totally consumed my time (and mind) and I forgot what I set out to do in the first place. Didn't matter, didn't have time left after insuring all the safety requirements were met and documented.

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06-07-2004 16:53:33

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Re: A new one on me...... in reply to Wayne, 06-07-2004 16:43:19

Does this customer have some government contracts subject to affirmative action laws? If they do, this may be a CYA policy to keep them from nuisance suits. Send them the registation bill and ask them to pay it or explain why they want you to pay, ask them to send copies for your lawyer. Ask them to verify they actually have a new policy and that the third party is actually autherized to collect confidential info. could be a scam. Be prepared for troubles next job. RN.

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