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Snortin Propane

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txblu

07-01-2004 09:19:10

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Diesel's need compression to start, Right?

Well this tractor I just purchased is a little short on that making summer starting a little laborous and I am betting this winter is going to be a joke.

The tractor has no wintertime assists that I can find. I could use starting fluid (ether) but that's hard on the innerds (all the banging and clanging).

What about using an old barbecue propane bottle and regulator and giving it a snort of propane down the ole snoz?

Anybody ever do that and does it work? This would be real clean and cheap and easy to administer.

I don't want to spend the time and money for an OH when the only (potential) problem is starting.

Thanks,

Mark

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Tom

07-03-2004 05:59:38

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Hey Txblu, you can add Shell DFA (diesel fuel additive) to your fuel and raise the Cetane rating by up to 6 numbers. That should aid in a little easier starting. You can also get the same product in the APS brand, made in Weaterford Texas. These additives are good to use anyway, as they prevent gelling, lub liftpump, lub injector pump, clean the injectors, stabiliz the fuel, etc. I use it in every drop of diesel on the farm, year round.

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txblu

07-03-2004 07:05:47

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Tom, 07-03-2004 05:59:38

Sounds good. Where do you get it.

Thanks for the response.

Mark

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Paul Janke

07-02-2004 19:10:17

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

I have no idea why, but with 855 CID Cummins (I haven't tried it with others), cranking for anywhere from a few seconds to half a minute, stopping for one to five seconds, and trying again often makes them fire right up. Instead of trying to run on one or two at first, they all light immediately after this short pause. Anybody know if this is true of others as well?

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txblu

07-02-2004 06:12:22

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Thanks everyone for your help and positive responses. Looks like I have several options and surely one or a combination will do the job.

Have a safe 4th. Looks like I'm drying out a little and may get to do a little hayin.

Best,

Mark

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expert

07-02-2004 06:02:42

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Just buy a Farmall to pull it.

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txblu

07-02-2004 06:14:57

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to expert, 07-02-2004 06:02:42

Come on now. Everyone has been nice. My first tractor was a B.

Mark

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Randy V (SD)

07-02-2004 03:55:50

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Here's one that you guys misses. A diesel starts better in the summer because the air being drawn into the engine is also warmer. We found that our 1937 D-7 cat will start easier if we run a propane torch on and near the diesel intake to heat them up. This in turn heats the incoming air and helps it reach firing temp sooner..

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txblu

07-02-2004 06:02:18

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Randy V (SD), 07-02-2004 03:55:50

I'd forgotten too. This other Ford that I eventually overhauled got the hair dryer trick too. I'd pop the top off the air inlet and hit it with the dryer for a few minutes. Might do that with this too.

Thanks,

Mark

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Tommy D6-8U

07-01-2004 18:22:04

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Mark,

Let me suggest a remedy that actually is recommended by Caterpillar as the starting procedure for old indirect injection Cats like my old D6. If you have a good starter and battery (a must) leave the fuel shutoff until you turn the motor over for say 10-15-20 seconds then turn it on (however) and it will probably bust right off. On my D6 with a pony motor, I pull the throttle all the way closed and get it cranking over against compression which heats the cylinders without fuel. Once I start getting a little smoke from the exhaust, I give it the fuel and off she goes. I've cranked it in 10 degree weather and never used the first shot of anything. Of course the pony will turn it a lot longer than a starter but you get the idea. What happens is the fuel cools the cylinders down while cranking, but cutting it off lets it keep more heat in the cylinder. Try it and see before resorting to the explosives!

Hope this helps!

PS Deep six the propane idea; I think too much can go wrong. A little ether done right would be better IMHO

Tommy

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:59:49

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 07-01-2004 18:22:04

That's a great idea. Don't know why I never thought of it (city boy syndrome.....dah). Thinking about it, the fuel cooling makes sense.

Thanks,
Mark

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Davis In SC

07-01-2004 21:34:32

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 07-01-2004 18:22:04

Tommy, that is a good trick to use starting Diesels. In cold weather, I always leave the cutoff pulled out on my Massey 245. Hit the starter, let it turn a few seconds, then push in the knob. Usually fires right up !!! The fuel does cool the cylinder ..... I figured this out years ago,when I got caught in Mich. Was in an an old Mack, did not have any Ether, using this method, I got it started way below Zero.... Problem is. so many new engines have cut-off built into switch.

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txblu

07-02-2004 06:00:46

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Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Davis In SC, 07-01-2004 21:34:32

Mine is a push rod so it will get used.

Thanks,

Mark

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JDknut

07-01-2004 15:12:09

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

I'd get a coolant heater and plug that pup in. I don't like using ether or anything else shot into the intake. I have seen too many engines ruined by ether. I know one dude with a $4,500 can of ether, shot it into a Perkins and lucky he didn't blow it to smithereens, altho he did bend rods and need an inframe. He was lucky he got away with an inframe, that Perkins is tough as nails. The previous owner of my Deere over-ethered it and scored the cylinders. I would think propane is similar. Just put in a good tank type coolant heater and plug that bad boy in. Works up here where it routinely gets 30 below. just my $0.02

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:57:44

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to JDknut, 07-01-2004 15:12:09

My Perkins (3/152) has a pre combustion chamber. That's probably why he got the hot reaction to the ether if his had one too. (Different tractor)

Mark

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Chris

07-01-2004 14:25:11

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

I've started the inlaws powerstroke diesel on WD-40 because either just scares me a little in someone elses vehicle. I have him start cranking, give it a pretty good shot and stop when the first cylinder pops off. I jsut think it is safer. Anyone else tried this? Smells funny too!

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:56:00

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Chris, 07-01-2004 14:25:11

Did you do this recently, i.e. is Propane still used as a propellant in 40? If so, I'd just as soon use that. Course I could try some and then I'd know.

Thank,

Mark

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Jonathan

07-01-2004 13:48:47

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

You can add coolant heaters and stuff yourself, and you can buy them at auto parts and tractor places. I don't like to use either either if I can help it, and like others have said, just a light dose, like a 1/2 second shot. I got to witness a JD log skidder engine get damaged by the repeated use of way too much either in high school. I can still remember one of the kids emptying an entire can into the air intake and saying "she'll either go or blow!", and I think he was damn lucky it wouldn't start, because that much would have blown the engine all to he11 and I have read in textbooks about people getting killed by the engine flying apart and pieces hitting them from way too much. By the end of the winter the valves rapped and probably did alot more damage than I know. Why all that either didn't ignite that morning, I don't know, other than it was terribly cold, and was well below zero and must have miraculously not have generated enough heat.

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:54:24

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Jonathan, 07-01-2004 13:48:47

I can understand one having problems with a dose like that.

Mark

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07-01-2004 12:11:07

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

The ether from Wally World I think it is Supre Tech in a Black and Blue can does not make a diesel bang, bang da clank pop like many other ether does. I use it every first time I start my IH 806 summer or winter. Just a little whiff will do you and it pops right off nice and smooth. Yes Propane in the old wd-40 would bust one off too so I would imagine that the set up you mention would work but that is a lot of trouble when you can get gentle ether like the above mentioned. GOOD LUCK

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:50:46

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to KX, 07-01-2004 12:11:07

Thanks KX. I may have some in the shop and never used it. Will see.

Mark

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Mike (WA)

07-01-2004 12:29:23

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to KX, 07-01-2004 12:11:07

I agree with KX- It's fashionable to be death on ether, but you forget that a number of diesels had a single starting aid- an ether injector! I had one on an Internation 574 or 674, and have seen them on several others. Had an Oliver 1550 for 25 years, and I always used a puff to start it- I noticed no degradation in starting or running in all those years. The secret, if there is one, is just a puff, while turning the motor over. I don't think I have ever used up a can of ether- it lasts so long that it invariably loses its "fizz" first.

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:53:11

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Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Mike (WA), 07-01-2004 12:29:23

I agree with your mention of mounted cans on tractor OEM.

But it just seems to me that all that banging and clanging has got to be bad on an engine. At least these fords aren't sleeved and the chance of cracking a sleeve is nonexistent.

Your tractors banged and clanged for 25 years and it didn't bother them?

Thanks,

Mark

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Ron

07-01-2004 11:10:17

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Don't know anything about using propane but I do know that getting a diesel started in cold weather is all about engine cranking speed.

Make sure the starting system is perfect... high CCA batteries, 1/0 ga. cables with soldered connections, shine up all the terminals/connections. Use Mobil 1 (duh!) and a block heater. She'll start.

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txblu

07-01-2004 11:18:23

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Ron, 07-01-2004 11:10:17

Naw. This is another Ford 3 cyl Diesel. My first had a worse problem. Needed a snort in the summer. Did all the things mentioned to the tune of about $500 including new starter 00 cables as short as possible and OTR 950CCA Truck Battery.

Had to have the overhaul. Did it and that was that. But I'll give you this. That engine was definitely a basket case. You would not believe how thin those rings were. Funny, once you got it going it ran and pulled pretty well.

And, it had a cold temp primer....dribbled diesel in the intake manifold and used a hot wire to literally set it on fire....OEM.

Mark

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Ron

07-01-2004 11:31:39

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Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 11:18:23

Mark,

Just how bad is the compression on the new gal?

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:49:11

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to Ron, 07-01-2004 11:31:39

Don't know. Probably need to get a Diesel gauge. Thanks,

Mark

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buickanddeere

07-01-2004 10:44:36

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Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 09:19:10

Block heater, oil pan heater, battery blanket and trikle battery maintainer. That's after making certain the engine is and entire electrical system is sound. Wiffing around flamable vapours can be trouble. Particularly a high volume source (LP tank) and no auto shut off like an ether can nozzel. LP has high octane (about 108 to 112 depending who you ask) and doesn't ignite until pilot lit by burning diesel. Ether has an octane rating of just about zero. It ignites at low temps. Diesels need heat to operate. That comes from compression ratio and rate/speed of compression(universal gas law). A fast cranking 15 to 1 will get the air hotter than a slow turning 21 to 1 engine.

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txblu

07-01-2004 11:31:00

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Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to buickanddeere, 07-01-2004 10:44:36

Ok then that says other fossil fuels won't work either since I don't have a source of ignition other than heat; but why isn't heat enough.

What is the cetane rating of diesel and how does that compare to octane in terms of flash point; or maybe that only specifies burn rate, not flash point??? Confusing.

All that warm it up stuff is a bit much for me. I live in N. Tx and it doesn't get that cold . I don't have it and don't use the tractor often enough in the winter to justify the cost to purchase it and the cost of electricity to keep 1000 # of engine warm.

There has got to be something less violatile than ether that will work.

Didn't someone say they used WD-40 as a starting fluid when it had propane in it.....which I'm told it doesn't anymore?

Thanks for your reply. Enjoy reading your responses to other things. From your logo I assume you drive a Buick auto and have green tractors. Mine is Texas boy with blue (mostly) tractors (1000 series Fords).

Mark

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JWC

07-01-2004 15:54:39

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Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 11:31:00

There is an alternative I have not heard mentioned yet, Pull start it (if you have someone to help). In the 1970's we purchased an International 574 and a Massey Ferguson 275 (both new). The IH would not start below 40 degrees without starting fluid, but the Massey would start without assistance at any temperature. Others have commented on the effect of how fast the motor is turning when starting the engine. When we needed to use the 574 on cold days we would tow start it with the Massey or a pickup and it would start within about 20 to 30 feet when the clutch was released. The 574 had a starting fluid injector and was designed to use it for cold weather starting. The Massey had a starter and battery 1-1/2 times as large as the IH and would spin the motor fast enough for ignition to take place. We did not use starting fluid because of the horror stories from the old days when ether (no cylnder lubricants) was used. In the earlier days of diesel tractors people would pour liquid ether on rags and hold them over the air intakes (not very precise) when starting in cold weather.

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:46:52

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to JWC, 07-01-2004 15:54:39

If your Massey had the Perkins engine it probably had the pre-combustion chamber which does just that...starts when it's cold, unassisted.

Mark

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buickanddeere

07-01-2004 13:14:58

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Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to txblu, 07-01-2004 11:31:00

Cetane is a measure of how easy diesel burns, higher is easier to ignite. Octane is a measure of how difficult it is to ignite spark ignition fuel e.g. gasoline,LP,alcohol or natural gas . Pump diesel varies from 45 to 55 cetane which runs in 4 to 1 compression all fuel engines without detonation. If there is no electricity around then a very careful whiff of ether or an engine rebuild is required. Check the voltage from the starter's cast body to the main post on the starter that the solenoid supplies when starting. If less than 9.5 to 10.0 volts there is an electrical problem causing slow cranking. Still recommend using a block heater and a little battery maintainer to keep it topped up without boiling it dry. Yes, have a Grand Nation and a bunch of Deere two cylinders. Been a better investment than the stocks.

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txblu

07-02-2004 05:48:11

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Snortin Propane in reply to buickanddeere, 07-01-2004 13:14:58

10-4 thanks

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