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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Should I worry about this?

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Steve

07-13-2004 20:26:46




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I just rebuilt my engine on my 1956 Case 300, and while running it for the first time, I noticed that on top of one of the head bolts, where you torque the head down, that I have a very small leak of radiator fluid. Its not that bad I had to really look to spot it. Is this a big deal and what could be causing it?




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jake

07-14-2004 16:54:25




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 Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Steve, 07-13-2004 20:26:46  
Did you re torque the head bolts after the engine was warmed up, Makes a big diffrence might find a full turn needed when re-torque is done.



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Ron

07-14-2004 03:02:01




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 Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Steve, 07-13-2004 20:26:46  
The service manual for almost all engines will tell you which head bolts penetrate the water jacket and must have sealer and which ones are blind-tapped and must not have sealer.

You might be able to save it by learning which bolts need sealer, removing them one at a time, cleaning both threads, applying sealer, and torquing them properly.

In any case, you will have to change the oil and filter.

If that doesn't do it, then it has to come apart to see what the problem is.

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RAB

07-13-2004 23:36:21




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 Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Steve, 07-13-2004 20:26:46  
I agree with the posts below, but ask the following questions:
Has the head been retorqued after initial running? - all part of the rebuild.
Were the head bolt holes cleaned out well before reassembly - could be that the bolt is bottoming and not tightening or could be an hydraulic lock due to liuid in the bolt hole.
Was the head and deck checked for straightness before reassembly?
Was the gasket put on with sealant? - some may need it, some types MUST not have any.
Was it tightened down according to the gasket manufacturer or the original repair manual? - you may have a modern gasket material and an out-of-date procedure.
Did you torque the head bolts in the proper sequence? - were the treads all cleaned up?
Is your torque wrench accurate?
Are these actual bolts or studs, holding down the head? - if bolts, could the gasket have been damaged fitting the head? - I always use dummy studs to maintain alignment if the head only uses cap screws.
I will reiterate that any leak is potentially bad on a rebuild - even if it is only going to slowly corrode that bolt and threads.
If you don't already know the answers to at least all these questions, you should be worrying by now!
Hope it turns out alright.
Regards, RAB

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steve

07-13-2004 20:34:18




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 Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Steve, 07-13-2004 20:26:46  
OH I forget to tell you that it is the same head bolt that I used on the engine to lift the engine off the engine stand so I could mount it back on the tractor. Could this have weaken the head gasket in that area?



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Bob

07-13-2004 21:11:12




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 Re: Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to steve , 07-13-2004 20:34:18  
If the hole in the block the bolt screws into is not "blind", in other words, if it extends into water, you may have leakage past the threads, and then up past the bolt. Drain the water, remove the bolt, clean and dry the threads, and reassemble with thread sealant on the bolt.



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Mark - IN.

07-13-2004 21:31:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Bob, 07-13-2004 21:11:12  
Bob's probably correct, and it may cure your woes. I don't know what the torque sequence is on those headbolts nor the torque specs, but there is one, so go through the sequence after draining the fluids. Also, check your oil for coolant comtamination. Would be a shame to put that much work into a/the motor then spin bearings because of oil breakdown (comtamination). If that doesn't fix it, and it may very well, then you're gonna have to go to step two...digging deeper. Do what's simple, easy, and obvious first.

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Steve

07-14-2004 08:38:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Mark - IN., 07-13-2004 21:31:04  
Thanks for the help guys. Also could it be that the water is leaking from around the water holes in the cylinder head gasket. There is two holes in the head gasket by this bolt hole (the one thats leaking) about half a inch on either side. The head gasket had a brass (or brass colored) rings built into the head gasket around these holes. I guess when you tighten the head down that those rings seal the holes? Am i corect on that? Anyway could this be leaking? Also what kind of sealer on the bolt should I use?

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Ron

07-14-2004 08:58:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Steve, 07-14-2004 08:38:23  
Not knowing the entire history of the engine I 'll give you some general answers.

Many modern gaskets have silicone rings around the water jacket holes. These are made to stand proud until the head bolts are made tight. Then they compress to seal off any coolant. These are foolproof unless the head was not checked for warp. You check for warp with a machinist's steel. Often during rebuilds this step is skipped. If warp is found, the head must be machined dead flat or no gasket on earth will seal it.

I use Permatex #2 non-hardening sealer. It is by far the most effective sealer on the market. But it's only fair to tell you that removing it will enrich your vocabulary!

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Bob

07-14-2004 08:53:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Steve, 07-14-2004 08:38:23  
As RAB said, when you have the water drained, and the bolt out, check to be sure the hole is clean and does not have impacted dirt at the bottom. Stick a wire down the hole as a gauge to verify there is more hole depth than the length of the bolt.

I use a headbolt thread sealer product in a tube from GM. Sorry, I'm not at the shop today, so I don't have the part number, but an automotive supply should be able to fix you up with a product from Permatex or a similar outfit.

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Steve

07-14-2004 14:31:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry about this? in reply to Bob, 07-14-2004 08:53:18  
Guys I took the head bolt out and stuck a wire down in the hole and it bottomed out. Also it had plenty of room for the bolt to be screwed in all the way. So I guess that the bolt does not go into the water jacket system, (wet sleeve engine). Is this the right or what yall tell me! I guess the head gasket is leaking up through the bolt hole.



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Ron

07-14-2004 15:56:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry about t in reply to Steve, 07-14-2004 14:31:37  
Not so fast. If you drained all the coolant the test you did is worthless. Bolts often go through the water jacket and then back into the block; i.e. the sides of the hole penetrate the water jacket. You can test by filling the bolt hole with water and see if leaks out into the empty water jacket.



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Steve

07-14-2004 16:05:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry abo in reply to Ron, 07-14-2004 15:56:53  
I took the bolt out and filled the hole with water and it stayed in the hole. It did leak about 1/16 of a inch over about two hours, but I dont think it is connected to the water system.



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Mark - IN.

07-14-2004 18:24:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry in reply to Steve, 07-14-2004 16:05:04  
Steve, if you drained the coolant, then filled the hole, and it went down 1/8" in about 2 hours, that's not exactly correct either. As some others said, check the head for one after you pull it, because it sure sounds as though you're going to have to pull it to make sure that it's not warped, and if it is warped, you're going to have to get it "decked" (machined) .005", .010", etc. until it's trued. Now, back to the coolant dropping an 1/8" over 2 hours. If that hole went into or passed through the cooling system as many do, there would be no mistake about it, and the water that you filled it with would go down quickly. However, since it decreased only a minor amount, it could very clearly indicate a small crack in the block that isn't showing up until the engine is heated and the cooling system is under pressure. How do you fix that? If it's just leaking into the bolt hole and nowhere else, maybe a good gasket and sealer around the bolt. Engine's not over heating? you didn't maybe mix up head bolts at first and then crank down on one before realizing was too long, before finding a/the correct shorter one, but not before cracking into the block at the bottom of the bolt hole? If so, you wouldn't be the first, and if so, maybe Lock-tite on the bolt threads will seal it, built if you ever have to take it apart again (with lock-tite on the bolt), you're going to be in for one tough day. In any event, sounds like the head's gonna have to come back off, and when it goes back on "use the correct bolt torque sequence, and appropriate torque pressure, both of which are specified".

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Steve

07-14-2004 18:52:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I w in reply to Mark - IN., 07-14-2004 18:24:17  
I took the bolt out and dried the hole out with a airhose then put permatex #2 non-harding on the bottom of the bolt at the threads and put it back in. I waited for about 3 hours then, put some K&W block sealer in the raditor and ran the motor at idle, accoring to the instructions on the sealer. while running the motor when it heated up in about ten minutes the bolt started leaking AGAIN! Also I just had a valve job done on the head, and they also milled (shaved) it. I dont know if they checked it with the ultraviolet light though? Is it the head gasket or a small crack in the head. Yall HELP ME PLEASE ! Thanks Steve

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Ron

07-14-2004 16:50:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I worry in reply to Steve, 07-14-2004 16:05:04  
I'd pull the head and have a look.



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