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Farm Diesel Contents

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txblu

07-19-2004 06:01:44




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Got some diesel at the terminal Friday. Instead of pitching the receipt in the drawer, I read it.

Guess what I bought:

DOT Classification: T/T Diesel, Fuel, 3, NA, 1993 PG III.

Description:
HIGH Sulphur Dyed Diesel Fuel (Non-taxable use only, penalty for taxable use, not legal for highway use).
----- ----- ----- -----

Then there was a line for LOW Sulphur hwy Diesel, and 3 grades of gasoline, and one kerosene, plus one for all other products.

At the bottom was a note (applicable to the 3 gasolines) that included this "....Bezene: 1.3% per gal max..... ..."

Looked in Webster's and Bezene wasn't listed. Went to www Google search engine under the subject Bezene and it had a site titled: "Reactions to Benzene Derivitaves". Just an FYI.
----- ----- ----- ----- -----

So, if your farm diesel is sold as mine is, with high sulphur content, you can quit worrying about additives to make up for low sulphur content cause it's high.

Mark

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buickanddeere

07-20-2004 04:52:39




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
The sulphur doesn't lubricate in it's self. It bonds with the metal to make a hard sulphate wear layer. Way, way, back the lubricant for gear boxes, differentials etc. Was to take gear oil which was just the thick remains after refining fuel and lube oils from crude oil. Add a few teaspoons of sulphur powder per gallon and there's gear lube oil. The farm fuel is still high sulphur around here. To avoid the stink from the fuel and exhaust I just purchase highway diesel and add some wonder glop.

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txblu

07-20-2004 05:53:28




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to buickanddeere, 07-20-2004 04:52:39  
Well, my highway diesel is 40cents a gallon more with the road tax, then more money for additives.

Mark



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john in la

07-20-2004 17:16:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-20-2004 05:53:28  
Depending on how much you use you could order low dyed from your jobber. It is just a few pennys more than high.
No I have never lived or worked in lake charles.



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buickanddeere

07-20-2004 08:42:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-20-2004 05:53:28  
I find it a cheap price to pay to avoid the stink, getting wheezed up and using the inhailers.



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txblu

07-20-2004 09:11:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to buickanddeere, 07-20-2004 08:42:36  
I guess you are referring to the sulphur. When I was in high school spent summers on tug boats and barges. One run we had was from a Texas Gulf Coast Sulphur in Galveston, Tx. We picked up tons of the stuff and took to New Orleans. If you think you get wheezed up try sitting in an open cockpit behind 4 ea 135' barges of it. Cried like a baby the whole time and It got into everything. I realize that it wasn't burning, but just hauling it was bad enough.

Mark

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john in la

07-19-2004 17:35:38




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
JUST CAUSE THE BILL SAYS HIGH SULPHUR DOES NOT MEAN IT IS !!!!! !!!!!

Most jobbers just put high sulphur printed on the bill for just in case it is. Depending on where he bought it from it may be dyed low sulphur. This is most likely true because he does not have a line for low dyed. The only place you can trust what the bill says is at the manufactures loading rack where your jobber loads.

The way it goes is high sulphur MUST be sold as off road (all ways dyed). Low sulphur can be sold as on road (clear) or off road.(dyed)
Some refineries only make and stock low so they do not have to make both just as some only make high.

They went to low sulphur to help engine manufactures meet emisions standards. With the EPA future standards the engine manufactures are yelling they may need to go lower on sulphur.

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txblu

07-20-2004 05:52:08




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to john in la, 07-19-2004 17:35:38  
Interesting.

John, didn't you work for Cities Service in Lake Charles? I used to deck hand on tugs running barges in and out of that terminal.

Mark



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New-Gen

07-19-2004 15:24:35




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
Here's my personal experience:
I was working at a farm away from home and my transfer tank in my pickup was empty, so I went to tha local truckstop and filled it up instead of going all the way home. As the day wore on the 4020 kept running worse and worse. The governor was acting up bigtime. I managed to get it home and the next morning called the place that had just rebuilt the stanadyne pump. They asked if I had been using low sulpher fuel, and I told them what I had done. They told me before I pulled the pump off to try additive. I put in STP brand, enough to treat 150 gallons, into about 10 gallons of fuel. I fired it up and it was back to running like a champ before I got it out of the toolshed!

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txblu

07-20-2004 05:49:17




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to New-Gen, 07-19-2004 15:24:35  
Speaks for it'self.



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Low Sulphur Vs High Sulph

07-19-2004 11:51:51




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
Some basic facts are: Sulphur DOES NOT lubricate anything. Sulphur in any amount is not good for engines or pumps. When sulphur is removed or lessened by refinig techniques, it makes the diesel better for your engine, however, it also REMOVES the natural lubricating properties or the fuel. Thus low sulphur fuel has lubricity because of the processes, not because of less sulphur. In any case, it is good ploicy to add something like Shell DFA (diesel fuel additive) which adds lubricating properties, prevents gelling, raises the cetane rating of the fuel, keeps tanks and lines clean, etc. etc. Another brand is APS (made in Weatherford Texas) which does the same thing. EVERY DROP of fuel that I burn has DFA in it, and (knock on wood) I have never had a pump failure on any tractor, never had moisture problems, never had gelling, never had rusting, never had blocked lines, etc. I would rather pay a little as I go for the DFA whether using high or low sulphur fuel, than pay the big bucks for pump overhauls.
Tom

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Jerry/MT

07-21-2004 11:04:19




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Low Sulphur Vs High Sulph, 07-19-2004 11:51:51  
Sounds like you have a background in the petroleum business. It's nice to hear an objective discussion on the lubricity problems of the low sulfur fuels rather than a bunch of "urban legends". You ought to do a technical post on this subject so that people can retrieve it from the archives. I guarantee that this guestion will come up again and again and somee bad info will get diseminated to the unsuspeecting.

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Burrhead

07-19-2004 19:47:52




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Low Sulphur Vs High Sulph, 07-19-2004 11:51:51  
Tom

Here's a link with comments from several diesel engine manufacturers and end users who claim the new fuel is low lubrication.

I think I'll trust the records at Cummins and Deere on this one.



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Roger.

07-20-2004 06:49:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Burrhead, 07-19-2004 19:47:52  
Well guys it looks like in the future if your crop needs sulphur you will have to apply it in the fertiliser or as a sprayed on micro-nutrient and if your older design engine needs it then an additive is the answer. The pay-back is that over time we will all be healthier thru not having to breath that polluted air,future generations will thank us for it. (just announced on CNN that Dallas is at a code red for air pollution today)

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High Sulphur Vs Low Sulph

07-20-2004 05:50:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Burrhead, 07-19-2004 19:47:52  
Burrhead,
this is from that site:

"Apparently, one source of the trouble is that there are many ways to remove the sulphur content. The cheapest of these involves hydrotreating, a process that removes sulphur by treating it with hydrogen. Unfortunately, hydrogen is highly reactive and also reduces the lubricity, or lubrication properties, of the end-product diesel."
You see it is the reduction of lubricity that is the problem, and always using Shell DFA like I do will solve the problem.

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txblu

07-20-2004 05:54:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to High Sulphur Vs Low Sulph, 07-20-2004 05:50:53  
So where do you get Shell Diesel Fuel Additive besides at a Shell terminal?

Mark



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Tom

07-20-2004 12:34:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-20-2004 05:54:52  
You can get it at any Walmart store. Also at Tractor Supply store, and at any tractor dealer. If it is not the Shell DFA, just read the label to make sure it lubs the pump, cleans the system, raises the cetane, prevents gelling, etc.



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bob

07-19-2004 18:53:29




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Low Sulphur Vs High Sulph, 07-19-2004 11:51:51  
better tell John Deere engineering department that sulfur doesn't lubricate anything.That is exactly where I was told it did in fact lubricate the injection pump back in the days when when the sulfur content was first lowered.



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Ray

07-19-2004 11:19:50




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
Well, here's my $0.02. Some states, (Ca being one) has low sulfer in dyed diesel. Not sure about changes in content, but much of the sulfer in the air of the NE was from high sulfer coal burned in Midwest coal-burning power plants. They had really tall stacks so that it spread far and wide. They were mandated to gradually reduce their sulfer dioxide through scrubbers, and the implementation of those requirements was one of the black-eyes the Bush administration got because they slipped the time-table for some older plants. Regarding sulfer in fertilizer, ammonium sulphate used to be the dominant form, but its' replacement with ammonium nitrate occurred because it was higher analysis and cheaper because of shipping costs per unit of N. So, the sulfer was eliminated from many fertilizers. A cheap source of S (if your soil test says you need it) is gypsum, which also supplies calcium. Supposed to be neutral in effects on soil pH too, unlike many other forms of sulfer which drive it down.

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bob

07-19-2004 09:00:14




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
They might call it high but it is not high enough for the old Roosa master rotary injection pumps tp survive on.Simply not enough sulfur for proper lubrication of those old pumps.If you are still running one of those old pumps,always keep some additive in the fuel.



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Steve450

07-19-2004 10:08:39




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to bob, 07-19-2004 09:00:14  
Which Roosa master pumps require additives???
My IH 656 has a Roosa master and I never heard of putting additives in it. Should I be??



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bob

07-19-2004 20:13:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Steve450, 07-19-2004 10:08:39  
All of them Steve.The big problem comes when the jobber carries only one grade of diesel( Most only carry one grade).Then he tosses in some dye and a additive package that may or may not get blended real well and that is supposed to be farm diesel?I twisted off 2 pump shafts in my 4020(one ran less than 2 hours) before I found this out through a competitor exactly what was going on.Even though I am a Deere factory trained injection pump repairman it still cost me a ton of money for the parts.Those head and rotors don't come cheap.Get the Standedyne additive and follow the directions on the bottle.It is very inexpesnive compared to a pump overhaul,bob.

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Ron

07-19-2004 06:53:31




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
It's "BENZENE" and is a high fraction hydrocarbon added to improve starting in cold weather. The amount is varied according to location and weather. It is a known carcinogen.

Regarding the sulphur, I'll keep worrying. It causes acid rain which kills fish.



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Roger.

07-19-2004 06:38:18




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 Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to txblu, 07-19-2004 06:01:44  
North american diesel I believe is allowed 500 parts per million of sulpher changing to 50 ppm in January 06, compare this to European diesel standard at 25 ppm for several years now.The life of our planet is being compromised.



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VADAVE

07-19-2004 09:04:03




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 Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Roger., 07-19-2004 06:38:18  
There is less sulfur in the air today then any other time in your or your grandfather's life.
I hope your adding sulfur to your fertlizer mix cause without your yields are down.



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Ron

07-19-2004 09:20:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to VADAVE, 07-19-2004 09:04:03  
The EPA does not agree with you which is precisely why they are forcing coal burners to clean up their act and diesel oil burners to clean up theirs. About time.



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ribbitt

07-19-2004 10:16:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Ron, 07-19-2004 09:20:03  
Ron,
I am unable to find a reference which substantiates your contention. Could you please provide one? What I did find was that in the eastern US, sulfur dioxide levels peaked in the late 1980's, with steady reductions of about 2.8% per year, increasing (reductions)to about 5% per year in the late 1990's.



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Ron

07-19-2004 12:29:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to ribbitt, 07-19-2004 10:16:59  
Visit the EPA website. You'll learn the the EPA has a target goal for atmospheric sulphur dioxide release and we are very far from it. Hence, the more stringent limit on coal plants and the new diesel fuel limit.

Ps. I'll bet the Canadians are happy about the reduction in the eastern US. 50% of their dead lakes were caused by sulphur dioxide... carried all the way from... the eastern US.



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ribbitt

07-19-2004 14:08:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Ron, 07-19-2004 12:29:24  
Wait a minute...VADave stated there is less sulfur in the air today than in any time in your or your grandfather's life. You stated the EPA does not agree. Please provide a reference to back up your assertion. The fact that the EPA wants to further reduce atmospheric levels does not prove your contention. So where's the data? That's all I want to know. The reference I found indicates levels have been steadily declining since the late 80s.

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Ron

07-19-2004 14:17:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to ribbitt, 07-19-2004 14:08:41  
Look wiseguy, at least read the post before you run your mouth. VADave made some goofy comment about Roger's grandfather, not mine.

And I'm not doing your homework for you either...



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ribbitt

07-20-2004 06:04:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Conten in reply to Ron, 07-19-2004 14:17:51  
Well, I guess we'll just have to settle for name-calling and surliness instead of actual data. Too bad..... I wanted to see for myself if what VADave said was correct. Thanks for the help, Ron.



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VADAVE

07-19-2004 10:02:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to Ron, 07-19-2004 09:20:03  
When did you get the idea that the EPA knows what they are talking about?
It is a fact that your grandfather did not put sulfur in his fertilizer. Shoot I didn't need when I started farming in the early 90's. Today, however it is required as what sulfur falling from the air is insufficent to meet the needs of the crops.



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txblu

07-19-2004 10:43:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farm Diesel Contents in reply to VADAVE, 07-19-2004 10:02:24  
Now that is an interesting comment; probably true.



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