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What happened here?.

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Jonathan

08-22-2004 20:01:08

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I found this photo on a tractor pulling club site and I was wondering what caused such a catastrophic engine failure?. I'm thinking this is the aftermath of a severe case of detonation, the head is blown clean off, the sleeves are all pushed up, the engine broke free of the transmission and any other mounts. Sure glad I wasn't driving it!.

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Hermit

08-23-2004 17:42:07

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:01:08

A little nitro will go a long way.

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Just a matter of time

08-23-2004 13:07:12

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:01:08

In-living-color proof that there's no cure for stupid!

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Redman

08-23-2004 13:51:42

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Just a matter of time, 08-23-2004 13:07:12

stupid has nothing to do with it.
on a cool day it is very hard to control boost pressure on a SS diesel.
also pressure spikes over time will fatigue the block until this happens.
look back at the old ones,they always split at the oil fill hole.
atleast it is moving around now.

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Jak

08-23-2004 14:36:40

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Redman, 08-23-2004 13:51:42

I really enjoy attending these kind of pulls but it seems real likley that one day someone is going to get hurt or killed.These machines are sooo violent and some places people are really close to the track.I've seen the sled get plum sideways,tires come off and head toward spectators,and drop thier guts all over the track.I hope it never does happen and maybe it won't but I ain't gonna be anywhere close to them while they are pulling.

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Redman

08-23-2004 15:52:01

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jak, 08-23-2004 14:36:40

it could happen,that is why they have new rules every year to make it more safe.
truck and tractor pulling with the NTPA and the ones that follow the same rules are at the top of the list when it comes to safty.
want to live on the edge go to a monster truck show as they are the most dangerous for spectators.

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Redman

08-23-2004 10:30:22

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:01:08

this is the future of SS diesel pulling,the better the heads get and the more they understand the way the cam works inside a diesel the more cyl pressure they can run with less boost.
most of todays SS diesels are running between 130 to 200 psi boost where they were running 200 to 265 psi just a few years ago.
average compression on a SSD is 11.4:1

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Don

08-23-2004 05:33:57

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:01:08

Could it have been George Montgomery that had the turbo ford.

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BushogPapa

08-22-2004 20:43:33

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:01:08

That is what happens when about 225 lbs of Boost exceeds the strength of the iron engine block..!! The block splits ..the sleeves going UP and the crank portion staying behind...!!

As Grumpy Jenkins used to say of his 9 Second 2000cc Pinto"s.. "They run Great at 46 lbs of Boost-- and GRENADE at 47..."!!!

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Mark - IN.

08-22-2004 21:30:01

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to BushogPapa, 08-22-2004 20:43:33

Are you sure "The Grump" said that of "his" Pintos? Bill Jenkins was a serious Chevy guy, perhaps the most serious of all. Now, I could've seen him mailing a Pinto engine to the likes of Bob Glidden, or Gapp and Rousch back then, just as a joke so it'd explode when they opened the envelope, but never in one of his cars. I could be wrong, but always remember him as being a big Chevy guy, even when ran an early 60's Impala that said "348" on it, but was really a 409 lurking under those heads.

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G-MAN

08-23-2004 07:55:17

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Mark - IN., 08-22-2004 21:30:01

Grumpy was a big-time Mopar tuner before he became a Chevy guru. I can't remember who he wrenched for, but I have some articles about it at home. I'll see if I can find them tonight.

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Jon H

08-22-2004 21:55:53

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Mark - IN., 08-22-2004 21:30:01

The Grump ran some of those sad little 70's compacts,but the name on the side I am quite sure was Vega or Monza.

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Mark - IN.

08-22-2004 22:12:54

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jon H, 08-22-2004 21:55:53

Yep, that's the way I remember it, a very healthy stable of Chevy engines, no matter what he put them in. Seen him weldup his own tunnel ram because he couldn't get one to his specs, then ground and polished the plenum beads into shape. Literally welded bead onto bead until it took shape, for a Chevy. It sure was ugly on the outside, but it sure worked.

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BushogPapa

08-22-2004 22:11:14

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to Jon H, 08-22-2004 21:55:53

Nope, I"m sure he fiddled with supercharging the 2000 pinto for a season or two..!! I specificly remember that "Quote" of his about the "Grenading"...!!

Ron..

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Jon H

08-23-2004 07:42:15

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Re: What happened here?. in reply to BushogPapa, 08-22-2004 22:11:14

Your right BushogPopa !! Your posts brought back just a tiny spark of memory about the car.A Google search found this listing which confirms it.
'Grumpys Toy Pro Mod'; 76 Ford Pinto.

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Jonathan

08-22-2004 20:03:35

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Another picture in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:01:08

N/M

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CRUSADER

08-22-2004 21:16:15

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Re: Another picture in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:03:35

Bet the driver had to change his shorts after that.

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buickanddeere

08-22-2004 20:54:46

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Re: Another picture in reply to Jonathan, 08-22-2004 20:03:35

Kind of looks like the top deck split off the block with the head still bolted to it with the sleeves which were pulled up from the blocks main webs. Unlike a spark ignition engine where pinging/knock/detonation will double, triple or more combustion chambers above normal pressures. A diesel by definition is detonating when ever it"s running. There would have been stress from heat, heating cooling cycles, vibration and just plain pressure. If you figure 90psi boost (6 atmospheres) and 14 to 1 compression. The combustion chamber pressure must be in excess of 2500psi trying to push that head off on just one cylinder alone. On a 5" bore that would be 24+ tons of lift on just one cylinder. Now imagine the thrust after the fuel is injected and pressure really begines to rise during combustion? On some race car engines the head does not bolt to the top deck of the engine block. Instead the studs are long and reach down into the main webs. And clamp the whole engine together from top to bottom.

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Ken Macfarlane

08-23-2004 07:22:41

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Re: Another picture in reply to buickanddeere, 08-22-2004 20:54:46

A diesel isn't really detonating, it can't because it doesn't burn a premix fuel air charge. The injection cycle allows the controlled burn.

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G-MAN

08-23-2004 07:52:32

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Re: Another picture in reply to Ken Macfarlane, 08-23-2004 07:22:41

Yes and no, and buickanddeere is pretty much right. Detonation in a gas-burner is spontaneous uncontrolled ignition - the cylinder pressure or a hot spot in the chamber ignites the fuel-air charge before the actual spark can occur. Since diesels use compression to fire, they would technically be "detonating" to some degree, but it's obviously a lot more controlled and planned than a gas-burner. Not like comparing apples to oranges, but more like comparing two different kinds of apple.

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Jonathan

08-23-2004 09:26:12

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Re: Another picture in reply to G-MAN, 08-23-2004 07:52:32

How I understood a diesel ran is through the heat generated by compressing the air and fuel mixture and the fuel ignites at a certain point. What I was thinking was the engine was bored and there was so much boost getting rammed down into the engine that maybe a hot spot was created that was hot enough to ignite the mixture prematurely, especially at the extrememly high RPM that these guys run and the higher compression ratio and possibly mixed with some nitrous.

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G-MAN

08-23-2004 10:46:34

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Re: Another picture in reply to Jonathan, 08-23-2004 09:26:12

Diesels do fire by using compression-heated air, but only air is drawn into the engine, and the actual ignition happens at the instant the injection pump send enough fuel to the nozzle to overcome it's opening pressure and allow fuel into the cylinder. At least on a stock diesel. It's hard telling what that guy was blowing into the engine in the pic. Maybe it's not even a diesel tractor, but an alky burner. I don't know, but it looks expensive.

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Jonathan

08-23-2004 14:20:09

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Re: Another picture in reply to G-MAN, 08-23-2004 10:46:34

I guess I learned something new today, I didn't know the injection pump was timed to sent the fuel into the cylinder the very second it was to ignite.
Thanks for the info!.

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Redman

08-23-2004 10:53:36

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Re: Another picture in reply to G-MAN, 08-23-2004 10:46:34

he is a diesel,and it works the same as stock with a little higher break pressure right at 4000 psi with the french pump or "sigma".
i would guess it will knock around $35,000 out of his checkbook in a hurry.

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JDGnut

08-22-2004 21:49:21

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Re: Another picture in reply to buickanddeere, 08-22-2004 20:54:46

Yup.. she split just under the head bolts.. (studs) This is a weak area when the boost gets as high as those guys tend to run... They do have recasted blocks that are thick in this area to prevent this... (at least the red tractor do.. as they seem to be a little more prone to this disaster) Not sure how old this pic is.. most clubs have some rule about saftey for this... Usually a cable around the engine.. some have two cables.. but I think most have gone to just one cable toward the front of the engine... then it blows the upper part of the engine over the front of the tractor.. and not on to the driver or crowd... There are some good pics of the Hurricane Allis the came apart not too long ago.. and some good ones of a red tractor with a group of people standing around the upper part of the engine sitting about 15ft out in front of the tractor... JDGnut

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RickB

08-23-2004 15:54:11

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Fresh Photos in reply to JDGnut, 08-22-2004 21:49:21

My understanding is this happened at Cobleskill, NY about Aug 11 or 12 this year.

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mike actually....

08-23-2004 13:43:13

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Re: Another picture in reply to JDGnut, 08-22-2004 21:49:21

she split right at the frost plugs. Was all done pulling, had been given the flag when she popped. hood ended up 150 foot down the track but the parts spray stayed pretty tight to the tractor, no one got hurt. our local pull is this saturday night(15 days after the boom) and they say they're gonna be there... guess they are gonna start cabling the blocks on these horses

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G-MAN

08-23-2004 07:56:50

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Re: Another picture in reply to JDGnut, 08-22-2004 21:49:21

Are the cables really capable of containing something like that, or are they just a "feel good/CYA" measure to keep the insurance man happy? I've seen some of the cabled tractors, and it looks to me that if that engine comes apart with that much force, the cables aren't going to help a bunch. Maybe slow down some of the wreckage.

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Redman

08-23-2004 10:50:41

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Re: Another picture in reply to G-MAN, 08-23-2004 07:56:50

the cables will not hold it,but they will direct it in a area away from the driver.
we have a cable that had the same fate somewhere in the shop,it rips they right apart.
i have seen the top of the block,sleeves,turbos and hood go well over 40 feet after a blow-up like that one.

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mike

08-23-2004 16:42:45

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Re: Another picture in reply to Redman, 08-23-2004 10:50:41

my understanding is the cable sposed to flip the engine out front ahead of the tractor away from the driver and contain it from the spectators

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Redman

08-23-2004 17:44:11

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Re: Another picture in reply to mike, 08-23-2004 16:42:45

true,if it goes to either side the side shields should slow it so it will only fall on the ground,such as the picture shows.
if they go out the front they will go much farther in most cases,they shields are not as heavy in the front as they are on the sides and rear.
i know i sure wouldn"t want all of that to come visit me while i was straped into the cage!

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