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Water Well question????????????

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12-10-2004 18:17:07

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I want to have a well drilled at my barn with a submersible pump,,what I dont want is to have to have a pressure tank that I have to keep from freezing,all I want is a hydrant coming out of the ground in my barn. Coupla guys at work told me ya cant do it.I find it hard to believe with todays technology that it cant be done. Theres gotta be some kind of inline pressure control relay valve system,isnt there? Or if worst comes to worst a heated above ground pressure tank,but I imagine that would be quite costly(purchase and operation)I would just as soon avoid the tank all together and the little dog house that goes around it and the heat lamp and the heat tape etc. etc. etc. So if anyone has any suggestions I would appriciate it.

Thanks
Stan

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big jt

12-12-2004 11:08:02

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

You didn't say alot about your application. If you are filling a single stock tank you can use a gravity feed set up.

We have one using a old style hand pump with a jack. Water ran into a bowl attached to a pipe that ran about 8 feet to a tank for the cattle. Put the pump on a timer and set timer to run however long depending on how much tank needed. Out of cattle now so well isn't used. Pretty sure I couldn't put in this setup today due to safety regs.

If your application requires pressure I don't see how you are going to get away from the pressure tank mess. Just keep in mind these bits can be put anywhere in the system.

HTH
jt

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Paul Janke

12-12-2004 06:01:56

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Some have mentioned the variable speed pumps. One of the brands of this style pump is Grundfos. It takes only a tiny pressure tank to make it work.

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Rod F.

12-11-2004 19:04:59

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

300 feet is not such a long distance. What do you define as a creek? A ditch that carries some water year round or a real river? I wouldn't think a ditch or small brook would be too hard to cross. Just don't forget the applicable permits. In my area, bore holes run in the 150-300 foot range, so they arent cheap to drill. If you have ample flow at the house, a buried line to the barn would be the cheapest way out. Then just put a frost free hydrant in the barn, and there is nothing to worry about. If you do drill a new well, I would just put the bladder tank in the barn. Insulate a box around the tank with 2" styrofoam to keep the drafts out, put a heat lamp on or just a hundred watt bulb, and then put heat cable on all other exposed lines and you should be fine. I have no experience with below ground tanks etc. so can't help there. Perhaps the best advice is to talk to the well driller, as they would be familiar with your local conditions, and could give the best advice. Take care.

Rod

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Gaston

12-11-2004 15:20:33

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Real good way to pollute the neighborhood water source letting the water drain back into the well. Hope the neighbor doesn't forget to pull the hose out of the tank with horse slobber or some sprayer tank!

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Jet9N

12-11-2004 15:20:11

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

I would go with an under ground tank. I had that
setup at my house for 30 years till it rusted then
I put the new tank in the basement. Now my water isn't as cold as it used to be.

Jet

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Leroy

12-11-2004 15:06:13

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Back probably in late sixty-early seventy time tha old pumpjack pump failed and we had a submersable installed, it was just hooked to a direct fused switch and to a hydrant, in summer the hydrant was left with the handle up all the time, when danger of freezing after pump was shut off then would put handle down for hydrant to drain, when to use again lift handle then turn on pump, would keep a 3/4" garden hose running at full capacity

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farmall jim 10

12-11-2004 10:46:55

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

2 ways to fix..one way is a below ground tank like every one has said ..Second way is , if sumurgible pump to let pump drain back in well after each time you use it #2 way much eceaper all you do is take out foot valve on pump then whenever ypu shut it off it drains back ..I did this in our barn for 7 years till we finally fixed it all up I would run out 50 gallons at a time to stock tank then shut it off no way it could freeze then..

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12-11-2004 08:23:13

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

My main cocern about just switching the pump is somebody forgetting to shut it off,trust me it will happen(Murphys Law).

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wdTom

12-11-2004 07:13:42

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

This may be the answer if you don't require water on demand when you are not there. If all you want is water when you throw the switch keep reading. There is a check valve in the top of submersible pumps that keeps the water in the line from the pump to the house/tank from running backdown the line when the pump shuts off. Remove this check valve. Now when you shut off the pump the water will run back down into the well until it reaches the water level in the well, around here ,southern New Englend, this is not too far, about 10 to 40 ft. As soon as you switch on the pump it will fill the pipe and fill again and water will flow. You avoid the problem with the above ground pipe and tank freezing this way. You do need to leave the pipe open when you shut off the pump so water will run back down the pipe. I used this system to fill gravity storage tanks in the attic. I would fill the tanks until water ran out the overflow/fill conected to the top of the tank, shut off the pump, water would run back into the well leaving my plastic pipe, which was just laying on the ground, empty and safe from freezing.

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tractorhead in.

12-11-2004 05:13:20

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

I have a 60 foot well at my barn with just an off/on switch.Use it to fill my pond and water the garden.never had a problem,never even thought of a tank. jimmy

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workhorse

12-10-2004 21:22:53

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

another below ground pressure tank is the whitewater or dempster underground tank and pittless unit. they adapt to the well caseing and the pump is installed through the tank to the bottem of the well. the pressure switch is above ground with only air pressure to it so it cant freeze. these systems have been around for over 20 years and are reliable if installed correctly.

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JWhite

12-10-2004 21:21:03

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Depending on your location, there might be a legal question that might fit the statement "can't be done".

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John A.

12-10-2004 20:56:48

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

SJ, I am not sure were Home is for you so here goes. When I was in the panhandle of Texas and Okla, My pressure tank was installed below ground in a 8ft x 6ft diameter road flume with a hindged lid on the top just above the ground.
The driller installed it around the caseing, installed the presure tank beside it. Everything is right there out of sight, in a nice tidy , neat package. Never had a hint of a freeze inside this structure, even in our worst weather.
Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.

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workhorse

12-10-2004 20:20:14

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

one answer to your problem would be to install a varible speed pump. they do require a small pressure tank,that can be installed in the well caseing below the pittless adapter,and are controled by a pressure transducer inside the pittless. they only run fast enough to pump the water required to meet the demand. you set the pressure on the electronic control box where you want it, up to 100 psi, and the pump will maintaine that pressure regardless of the amount of water you use,up to the rated capicaty of the pump, of course.

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12-10-2004 20:15:07

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Thanks for all the responses,looks like the underground or in wellcase tank might be the way to go for me,man Ill bet those babys aint cheap. I need the water for horses and the barn is 100yds from the house also would have to cross a creek to run a line,I run water hose now from the house to fill a 300gal tank takes about 2-21/2hrs to fill,have to keep heating element in it and heat tape on valve,,BTW why does my heat tape only last one season is that common? And then of course I have to roll and drain hoses,that tank will last about 3 weeks and Im gettin really tired of doing that especially in Jan,Feb,lol.

Well Thanks Folks
Stan

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buickanddeere

12-12-2004 18:05:37

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 20:15:07

If the heat tape has a built in thermostat. The thermostat contacts fail open in the middle of the 2nd winter they are in service. Get heat trace that has no thermostate but varies it's output with the surounding temperature. A pressurized system without automatic control and over pressure relief is trouble looking for a place to happen. I solved a local mystery where the hydro bill was suddenly very high for months. The local handy man and electrician couldn't locate. The pressure control contacts had welded shut on the out of sight/unheard deep well pump. Fortunately it as a high volume/low pressure unit for shallow wells. She maxed out at only 75 or so psi. If the pump had been a multistage deep well unit in that 60ft well. She would have at the very least opened the relief valve on the hot water heater. Or split pipes. Trench in a pipe from the house with a plough. When at it may as well run a 2md trench for a phone line etc.

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Bob in the Ozarks

12-10-2004 19:36:11

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

How far is the barn from the house? If not too far, tie into the house water system, (pressure tank can be in the basement), bury line to the barn. Might be cheaper than drilling a new well. If too far or no house, than never mind.

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MarkB_MI

12-10-2004 19:23:28

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Looks like you need one of these:

Well-X-Trol Model WX-200-UG

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Coloken

12-10-2004 19:02:42

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Pump will cycle like every 10 seconds, and wreck the pump with out a tank, if you use a pressure switch. Only way is to use open flow and use a switch to turn pump on and off. Don't shut the hydrant off, just use the on/off switch to control. About 4 foot down in the well drill a small "seep hole" like 1/16 inch to drain back after you shut off pump. They sell T's with seep holes in them. Friend has well in garage and it is piped out to garden...turn on switch and get water, turn off well when done. If you want to run like a hose..oh boy! you need the volume of the pump to be no more then the nozzel can handle. Get the idea?

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paul

12-10-2004 19:02:23

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Water doesn't compress. Runnig a pressure faucet without an air chamber means the pumpis off & on & off & on - constantly. This is very bad for the pump.

Our well head is in a concrete pit 8' deep. 80 gallon tank is in the pit. Hasn't frozen once - in Minnesota - in what, 35 years? Never heated. Sometimes we cover with 2 bales of straw, sometimes the snow is deep enough.

--->Paul

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Mt Roy

12-10-2004 19:00:23

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

Talk to your driller. There is pressure tank that installs inside your casing just below your pitless adapter where it won't freeze. We use them all the time up here in the cold zone.

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Russ Smart

12-10-2004 18:59:20

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

They do make pressure tanks that you can bury below the frostline, but I don't know where you can buy one.

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Jerry/MT

12-10-2004 18:58:20

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Re: Water Well question???????????? in reply to SJ, 12-10-2004 18:17:07

I guess you could hook the pump directly to a switch and just turn it off when you needed water. You wouldn't even need a hydrant because your switch would control the pump directly. What are you going to us the water for? I suppose you could also also put a pressure switch on the line so that when you opened the valve, the line pressure would drop and the switch would close and close a relay that would turn on the pump. When the valve was shut off the pressure would rise, open the switch, which would allow the relay to close and shut off the pump. Just my two cents.

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