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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT: Setting a good example

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Mydeere

01-29-2005 18:40:27




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By reading the posts in the forums on the site I would have to say that most of us are concerned about the continued loss of American jobs and products to overseas companies and countries. By the actions of the United States Navy this week, I would have to say that they don't share the same concern as the rest of us. For they have opted to purchase the new presidential fleet of helicopters from Lockheed Martin instead of Sikorsky. Now I don't personally care who they buy thier equipment from as long as it is manufactured in the United States by Americans. The Lockheed deal is a conglomerate of foriegn companies. Out of all the items our government buys, I would at least hope that the Pentagon and the President would insist and make it a requirement that all pieces of military equipment be manufactured in the US with american labor and resources. It doesn't make any sense to me. I've worked for the govt. constructing buildings for them and am required to use American materials, which I have no problem with. They even go so far as to hire Project Clerks to inspect the bolts we use to make the connections in the steel frame of the building to make sure they' re of American origin. But they are willing to have the President of the United States of America, probably the most visible example of this country, flying around in a "foriegn" aircraft. What kind of example are they sending to the rest of us? Sorry about the long rant but I had to get it off my chest.

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Mydeere

02-01-2005 09:55:00




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
I think a few of you misunderstood my post. First of all as a tax payer I don"t want Uncle Sam spending anymore of my hard and not easy to come by dollars then necessary to accopmlish whatever it is thier after. And belive me I fully understand we are in a global economy. Second, the point I"m trying to make is that when Uncle Sam decides to put something out to bid there are specifications that must be met. In all my dealings with Govt. projects they have enforced the fact that materials must be of US origin without any consideration of cost. Now like I said before they won"t let me use Canandian steel or hardware even if it will save us tax payers money. They go to the trouble and expense of hiring inspectors to make sure that the materials are American. Beleive me they will reject it if its not. Not having seen the request for proposal, I don"t know if the bidders were allowed to use foreign materials and labor. But based upon my experience, if one bidder proposes 100% domestic material and labor over a mixed domestic/foreign product, the proposal for the mixed source product is usually not awarded the contract because the item is offered by someone else as 100% domestic. Other than us footing the bill, I guess it doesn"t matter much as probably none of us will ever be going for a ride in it. Thanks for the exchange of ideas.

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Rick in Tx

01-30-2005 18:52:10




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
All of the local Dallas/Ft. Worth tv stations were talking this new presidential helicopter this weekend. They interviewed top brass from Lockheed/Martin and Bell Helicopter both. I came away with the impression that it would be built by these companies up in Ft.Worth.



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Dave 2N

01-30-2005 16:59:54




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
I'm not an economist.
But-I really wonder sometimes, about all of the people who complain about something that is here to stay, and it's called a globabl economy. Like it or not, that's the real world, folks. So get over it.
And-of all of the folks who complain about outsoourcing and the global economy, how many of you drive a Honda, a Nissan or a Toyota? Unless I'm mistaken, a lot those vehicles are made in plants right here in the U.S. And last I knew, they were made by American workers.
Kudos to Lockheed-Martin! And I heard that it will bring nearly 700 jobs to Owego.
My $.O2.

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jhill

01-30-2005 09:06:28




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
The thing that worries me the most is that if a real war comes along ( Red China?) We wont have the ability to build our own military equipment. Used to be industries that were designatedas strategicly important. That doesn't seem to be important anymore.



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Bill WI

01-30-2005 07:51:30




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
I think they should both get a Chineese ultra light. In 4 yrs, throwem away and get something good. LOL



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Mark - IN.

01-30-2005 06:41:42




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
I agree with you. Don't force we Americans to give up a good percentage of our hard earned dollars through taxes, and then give it to a foreign government. Is sickening. Remember when the last President decided and tried to have our munitions made in RED CHINA?

Treason in my book.

Mark



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farmaljim

01-30-2005 05:26:48




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
Makes you sick doesent it..Its a very slippery slope..And it has been going on for quite some time...



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37 chief

01-29-2005 22:04:17




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
Agree 100% with you



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Davis In SC

01-29-2005 20:29:43




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
When I get elected as President, I will only fly in aircraft built in the USA..... .



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Paul in Mich

01-30-2005 11:58:22




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Davis In SC, 01-29-2005 20:29:43  
I hope you have good soles on your shoes (probably foreign made), because whether you become President or not, I doubt you will find any form of transportation short of bare feet that is totally made in the U.S. So to hold out for only totally American made Helicoptors, may get you back on your feet sooner than expected.



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mikeky

01-29-2005 20:16:33




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
My son is a mechanic in the Army and they use mostly imported hand tools.



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Van in AR

01-29-2005 21:07:24




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to mikeky, 01-29-2005 20:16:33  
The army still has thier head up thier @ss. When I was in the Army Guard we had all KAL tools to work on trucks with. Retired from the AF two years ago and they now only buy warranty tools. Snap-on, Mac, Craftsman, KD, etc. No more jap-ons, kal, no junk allowed.
Van



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Jay (ND)

01-30-2005 06:59:46




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Van in AR, 01-29-2005 21:07:24  
Low bid wins - I think that's the policy that went into place after many of OUR OWN companies stuck it to the government with their $400 hammers and their $600 toilet seats. Management of those companies at the time should have been hung.



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Paul in Mich

01-30-2005 12:27:17




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Jay (ND), 01-30-2005 06:59:46  
Jay, YOu make a good point. Government specifications, through beauratic morass and non-accountability, create a situation for which manufacturers are forced to build components that do not conform to normal industry standards, are over kills, require extreemly expensive yet certified material, and in many cases at mandated labor scale, which drive the cost way beyond their real value. I worked for a small manufacturer dealing exclusively in government contracts, and rememmber well some hatch screws for the navy which called for a double lead, acme screw with a pitch requirement that did not exist as an industry standard. The thread gauge to check these parts which had to also be specially made cost nearly $5,000. And we ask how there can possibly be a $400.00 hammer? It aint rocket science. As to outsourcing, while it seems Un-American on the surface, it is cost effective to the tax payer to whom we are all accountable. I, but for time and space, could cite many more reasons for outsourcing, (All with American interest in mind) than for demanding that we only buy products and raw materials made in the U.S. There is also the insourcing issue that can be addressed. As some have mentioned, we do live in a global economy, and as much manufacturing as we outsource, we need foreign markets for our products. It is not unlike a grocery store that would expect to survive by only what products it in itself could produce. The fact is that for a grocery store to exist, they need to oursource to the farmers, canneries, bakeries, meat packing companies, packaging products, and what have you. In the real world, there is no such thing as being self contained. It doesnt happen within the boundaries of the grocery business, and it doesnt happen happen within the boundaries of the U.S. We all want the best value, and we are interdependant to achieve that end. Remember, you cant buy French Champaign without doing business with the French. You cant buy a Swiss watch without doing business with the Swiss. They in turn cant buy a Chevrolet without doing business with us.

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jhill

01-30-2005 09:01:35




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Jay (ND), 01-30-2005 06:59:46  
The reporters who write these stories about government ripoffs need to look a little deeper.You can complain about $400 hammers but I have worked on government contracts. They require a bunch oin qualification test on EVERY part. My company was supplying fuel pumps for the heaters in armored vehicles. They too k a fuel pump you could buy uptown for $35and turned it into a $250 pump. EVERY pump was tested at -40F which took several hrs., they had to have gold plated electrical contacts and a rubber boot that was so big we had to wind an entire roll of electrical tape around the end to make the boot fit tight. The testing all had to be withessed by a government inspector and a gov auditor looked at the books to make sure our charges were in line. I think we made about $20.00 per pump. We constantly submitted cost reduction proposals but they were rejected.

Blame your own government for outrageous part prices.

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NAARon

01-30-2005 18:18:54




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to jhill, 01-30-2005 09:01:35  
Used to work for a company that made valves for the US Navy. The government had a way of making a 10 cent washer cost $2 because of the testing and paperwork required. Don't know if it is really needed or not, but it is not always corporate greed that inflates prices.



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Jay (ND)

01-30-2005 14:18:28




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to jhill, 01-30-2005 09:01:35  
LOL - the only time I get responses to my posts are when I'm wrong - oh well =)



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olivergreen

01-29-2005 19:25:26




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
ME TOO



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Engineer20

01-29-2005 19:21:58




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Mydeere, 01-29-2005 18:40:27  
I AGREE!!!



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Pitch

01-30-2005 05:36:47




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Engineer20, 01-29-2005 19:21:58  
hat new contract that Lockheed got is going to bring more than 400 jobs to the L/M plant 70 miles south of me and I'm sure that other L/M plants around the country are going to benefit from this contract as well. Last I heard Owego NY was still part of the USA. I know that the folks in Conneticutt around the Sikorski company are upset that they are not getting the work but thats the way the chips fell this time around.
Face it we are living in a global economy for better or worse and it in not going to change.

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FRANK

01-30-2005 18:04:52




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to Pitch, 01-30-2005 05:36:47  

MMMMM MM WONDER WHY DICK CHENEY,S HALLIBURTON CO. DIDN,T GET THE CONTRACT? THEY,ER GETTING EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!



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Gravy

02-01-2005 09:12:43




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 Re: OT: Setting a good example in reply to FRANK, 01-30-2005 18:04:52  
So,let"s see. Instead of evaluating items for best value we buy strickly American where items are made using union labor (feather bedding, work rules, etc etc) and using people who are hired for their gender, race, age, etc., instead of for their competence. Come on. Best value is best value no matter where made...



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