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High efficiency wood-furnaces?

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jdemaris

02-27-2005 10:33:19




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Has anybody had any experience with high-efficiency wood-furnaces? I’m well
acquainted with many of “outdoor furnaces” on the market, but I’ve yet to see one that
doesn’t waste extraordinary amounts of wood. They work great and offer many
conveniences like the ability to heat multiple buildings, fire outside of the house, and
provide a long-burn time due to large capacity. That’s fine as long as you have an almost
unlimited supply of firewood and the ability to handle it. Since the EPA put restrictions
on woodstoves, the difference is incredible. I realize this is not news to many, but I’ve been using a number of old woodburners until recently. I recently replaced a parlor
coal/wood potbelly stove built 1904 with a soapstone EPA rated 78% stove. It literally
uses half the wood to heat the same area and the heat is much more controllable. It
seems these new stoves can be run at a low setting without smoldering, unlike the
“air-tight” stoves that were popular 20-30 years ago. I recently installed a large, new
woodfurnace in my house hooked in with hot-air duct work and only use it in very cold
weather. It’s made by Meyers farm equipment Co. I installed it because using the more efficient
woodstove alone is not enough to keep pipes from freezing in the basement. Now, it
seems to me that if there WAS a EPA rated wood furnace, it too would use much less
wood. I’ve read and been told that since wood furnaces are exempt from EPA regs.,
there is has been very little advancement in their technology. Seems to be true. Most
advancements I’ve seen are hype in the advertising. I’ve read some literature on the H.S.
Tarm furnaces that are advertised as being extremely efficient, but have NOT been EPA
tested and I don’t know anyone that has one. Recently, there is a furnace being made in
Québec, Canada by PSG called the EPA Caddy. It HAS been tested, as far as I know, it
is the only wood furnace to get an EPA rating. I tried to buy one, but the company would
not sell it to me. I don’t know why. Maybe because I’m an American and not a
French-Canadian? The guy at the company that I spoke to, told me that they had no way
of verifying if my installation would be done properly, so I told him I’d buy it with no
warranty. Still wouldn’t sell it to me. So, I gave up, winter was coming on, and I wasted
over $3000 on the Meyers Woodchuck model 4000 furnace. It burns dirty, it is very low
tech, poorly assembled, and not even built of the materials they claim it is. It heats the
house fine, and I’m stuck with it for now. But - if anyone out there has found and/or used
a high-efficiency furnace, please post some info. about it.

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cockshuttguy

02-28-2005 17:16:56




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
We heated 2688 sq. ft. with an Ashley wood stove for years. Only complaint was it was hard to control if outside temps varied too much during some periods. I plan to heat my new tractor restoration facility with an air tight unit like it in the near future. Always thought I got a lot of heat for the amount of wood burned. Always used oak, ash, elm, split and dried. Good Luck,



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Can't even use my name

02-28-2005 15:23:08




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
I can tell you our outdoor wood boiler heating our farm house and milking parlor is way more efficient than the add on furnace heating another house. Reason being is the outdoor is almost air tight untill it needs to reheat the water then a squirrel cage fan forces air in and makes a blast furnace. When the water is to temp it gets airtight again and that wood is hardly burning up. So if you don't have this type of outdoor boiler I suppose it would waste wood. Now, you can burn green wood or what ever type you want but dry wood and your hardwoods still provide more BTU's than anything.

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buickanddeere

02-28-2005 08:26:54




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
The main problem with outside stoves is that people want to stoke then only once a day. The firebox gets filled to the top and the airflow checked back. Now all that wood in a hot low oxygen is just going to off gas unburned vapours/soot out the stack. And place that's cool will condense these gases and accumulate creosote. Most outside furnaces with that plumb of visible smoke is wasting fuel. An efficient fire has very few soot particles going up the stack.Mostly just CO2 & water vaopour. As about 80% of woods available heat is burning vapour and 20% is buring the charcoal/coke. So unless your outside furnace is kept burning brisk with a bright clean flame. You have time and money to burn.

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Four Feathers

03-06-2005 12:56:42




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-28-2005 08:26:54  
Here is todays best set up First you must have an eletric furnace and a heat pump the heat pump keep the house at a even temp all day with a low bill cost when it drops down below -15 then the electric fun. kicks in. Ask around and will will meet a lot of happy people, Good Luck PS no back breaking work involed



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jdemaris

02-28-2005 10:35:06




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 Re: Old Buicks ques. for BuickandDeere in reply to buickanddeere, 02-28-2005 08:26:54  
Forget to ask you, are you a Buick collector? I ask because I'm going to scrap out of couple of Rivieras soon. I gave them to my son when he graduated high school almost 10 years ago, he said he wanted to restore them. Well, he just got out of the military, got married, and is now living in Colorado. I'm in New York, so are the Buicks. They were both vandalized years ago - some windows broken, and such. So, for years they've been getting rain, snow, etc. inside of them. There's a wild cat living in one of them now with her kittens. 1963 and a 1964. One with the 401 engine, and the other with the "Wildcat 465" which I guess is a 425 cube engine? I drove the latter, it ran great when I parked it and drained the cooling system. I can't attest to the 401. I was told it was good runner but I never fooled with it. If you, or any Buick enthusiests you know are interested, let me know. I've got over 20 old cars and trucks and over 20 tractors here, and I want to clean up (at least a little). I had been considering putting the 425 Buick engine in my 65 Chevelle SS, but finally decided that a Buick engine just doesn't seem right in a Chevy.

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buickanddeere

02-28-2005 11:21:15




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 Re: Old Buicks ques. for BuickandDeere in reply to jdemaris, 02-28-2005 10:35:06  
My Maternal GrandMother had a late 1960's WildCat with a 425 or 455. She was a rather agressive driver until into her 60's. If you have some 86 or 87 Turbo Buick items,then sure. There was even plain jane turbo sedans with the steering column shifter.



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jdemaris

02-28-2005 09:43:38




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-28-2005 08:26:54  
Yes, and from what I've seen, the problem is compounded by a few other issues. I've looked at outdoor furnaces that replaced indoor units, and the mindset is now that they are completely safe, i.e. you no longer have to worry about burning the house down with a chimney fire - which in most cases is true. Subsequently, much less care is given to things like having the firewood dry and seasoned, keeping the fire from smoldering, etc. Much of the hype in the advertising just adds to this mindset. I've seen many adds claiming the furnaces will burn green unsplit wood, trash, etc. I was at a friend's farm yesterday. For years he had a indoor combo- wood/oil hot-air furnace. He changed over to the outdoor Central Boiler last year which pumps hot water into a heat-exchanger for hot-water-to-air in his existing hot-air ducts.. Now, he doesn't even bother to cut wood in the summer. He's dragging out trees from the woods today and will be burning them next week. And, some of it is red oak which needs a long drying time. Green, wet, unsplit, and the furnace smokes, smolders, and he's told me it's caught fire many times (the short chimney) but he just lets it burn. He also told me he's using about twice the wood now that he used to with the indoor furnace. But, I guess he's saving time since he longer splits it, stacks and dries it, etc. Seems you can't blame the increase in wood consumption totally on the furnace - since he's burning crap wood at low temps. In regard to the high-efficiency wood-stoves, I bought the largest one I could find - and by past standards, it's small. I think the firebox size needs to be kept to a minimum to keep efficiency up. That's another reason why I'd like to see the new EPA furnace the French-Canadians have - I'd like to see how they did it. But, guess they won't sell me one unless I move to Québec and start speaking bad-French. I'm kind of perplexed why they had it tested by our E.P.A., but won't sell it to me? Maybe because they think I'm an ignorant non-Frenchman? (actually, I am French - maybe if I send them proof I'll get better regard?)

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buickanddeere

02-28-2005 11:27:33




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-28-2005 09:43:38  
"some of it is red oak" ? Around here red oak is scarce and a fright for price. We would have to be awful cold to burn any log or furniture grade oak.



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Can't even use my name

03-01-2005 14:00:17




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-28-2005 11:27:33  
Around here it grows all over. Loggers don't even really want it. I love it and cut up a lot into lumber last year.



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jdemaris

02-28-2005 17:07:36




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-28-2005 11:27:33  
All the wood is high, but the tops still go for firewood. 20 years ago you couldn't give away sugar maple, now it is also sky high. So high that some of the old sugars woods are being logged. Used to be it wasn't worth taking a chance of hitting an old metal spile and screwing up a saw blade at the mill. I've heard that some White Oak veneer logs can bring close to $1000.



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Can't even use my name

03-01-2005 14:02:53




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-28-2005 17:07:36  
Any veneer log will fetch $1000... funny how you never have a veneer log though!



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BLW

02-28-2005 06:31:09




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
We have 45 yrs in the wood heating experiments- in our home-- the best so far is a furnace I built- welded together 3/8 steel plate- 48" long, by 28" wide, by 38" high- it works fine piped out to a well casing chimeny so you don"t have to worry about chim. fires- the trick was to use , in my case an ashley wood stove door, but any bi-metal spring auto draft will work, to control the fire so you do not waste wood- there is a mfg. that makes an outdoor wood hot air furnace thats the best Ive seen except the loading door is to small, and none of the mfgs will listen, who wants to split the wood that small- its a waste of time--- BLW

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jdemaris

02-28-2005 06:49:59




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to BLW, 02-28-2005 06:31:09  
I built one years ago that was similar. I too used the bi-metal spring off an Ashley, but you can buy them separate in many places now. I worked for Thermo-Control stoves that used the same principle. I used a 25' chimney made from 7" well casing, and put 10" chimney pipe over it, and then filled it will insulation. This kept the pipe hotter and cleaner in low-fire situations. It had a pretty high expansion/contraction rate. I built the furnace from 1/4" and 3/8" steel plate and insulated the interior with firebrick. I also built a recirculative flue-gas reburner in it with a diverter damper that I could open during low fire or starting situations. It worked well, but was still not efficient during low-fire. Using a bi-metal spring to control intake air allows the fire temp to get too low where it gets inefficient. That is the entire principle behind all the "air-tight" stoves that were popular during the 70s, and are now, more-or-less, illegal to sell new in the U.S.

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FarmerDave

02-27-2005 15:11:26




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
I follow another board frequented by builder boys. I think their favorite is>Link

They talk about Lopi, too.

You might like this too -
Link

People claim the ones with catalitic combustors are easy to clog up.

You can read all the builder boy's discussions in breaktime Link

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jdemaris

02-27-2005 20:35:03




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to FarmerDave, 02-27-2005 15:11:26  
I've researched a lot of that stuff already. As far as Vermont Castings and Jotul goes - I used to work for a place that sold them. They're built fine and so are a lot of other woodstoves. I have a Hearthstone which also comes from Vermont, and I love it. But, there is a big difference now adays between what the federal government calls a stove and a furnace. Seems what is going on right now is similar to what happened when farm tractors first hit the scene. Many wild unsubtantiated claims were being made by manufacturors, and finally Nebraska Tests started, and separated the bad ones from the goods ones - and gave farmers some way of sifting through all the hype. Today, instead of Nebraka Testing as it relates to tractors, we have the EPA regs. on woodstoves. So, now - generally speaking, they ALL preform comparibly. Some last longer or look better than others, but if they meet EPA specs. they are all pretty close. Problem is, Wood-furnaces are exempt - so the B.S. goes on. That's not to say that there are not some good ones - but even the better ones are still using old technology. That because they don't have to improve. I am sure that a woodfurnace can be built that will be as efficient as the EPA woodstoves. The only furnace tested by the EPA so far, the EPA Caddy in Québec, might be that good - but I was unable to buy one so I don't know. As far as the catlytic combustor goes, as I see it, it's a total waste of money. The first EPA woodstoves that came out had them, but technology improved and now the best stoves with the highest ratings do it without the combustors. In my area, for outdoor furnaces, we've got Johnsons, Empyres, Centrals, Mahonings, and I'm sure more. They all use very low technology in the combustion area - but for some people, it doesn't matter. To me it does since wood is work no matter how much woods you have. And, if you don't have your own woods, then you have to pay for it. My Hearthstone woodstove can almost heat our entire house, even when it's 30 F below zero - but since it a stove, not a furnace, it does not have a forced-air system and is not capable of transfering heat to remote areas of the house or down the basement. Thus the reason for our furnace. I will guess that if the furnace burned as clean as our stove, it would use half the wood and provide the same heat.

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VaTom

02-28-2005 05:20:41




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 20:35:03  
You've clearly done your homework well. Any reason you can't pipe your stove's hot air around the house? Tiny fans do a good job of it.

You're absolutely correct about the catalytics.



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jdemaris

02-28-2005 06:17:48




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to VaTom, 02-28-2005 05:20:41  
Yeah, I've thought about it. Maybe next year I'll try it. I just put the new wood-stove in this year, so I wanted to use it at least one winter to find out what it's capable of. Same goes for the new furnace I put in. I was leary of the new technology and also the price of these new stoves. Seems the consumer bears the cost of the EPA testing. I've been heating with wood for over 30 years and have had gravity-air wood-furances, pot-belly wood/coal stoves, Rumsford fireplace, air-tight stoves from the 70s era, etc. All my children were grown and gone until last year. Then, my wife had a new baby and holds me partially to blame. So, I had a son born the same month as two new grandchildren and he's an automatic uncle. This changed everything. We are living in a house built 1820 and had not been lived in since 1945, and are trying, to a degree, to keep it original. So, we had a pot-belly stove in one room, a wood cook stove, a Rumsford fireplace and a wood-fired bake oven in another. Now, with a little kid in the house, we can't use a lot of this stuff. Thus my attempt to have a good central wood-heating system. The new Hearthstone wood-stove is in a room that, so far, the new kid cannot get to. I built an an entire new room attached to the house just for the woodfurnace. This way the chimney does not pass through the house, and, it provides wood storage in the same room as the furnace. It works great in that way. I bring in ice and snow covered wood, and it's dry in a couple of days. The water gets steamed off the wood and helps keep the humidity level up in the house. That's the main reason why I did not want an outside woodburner - I now get the benefit of the radiant heat the furnace throws off, and I do not have to go outside when it needs to be loaded. When I started this project, I was hoping someone else had it all figured out, and I'd just buy it. Seems that's not the case. Just about any woodburner can be run efficiently when run full-bore. Problems comes when you want to turn the fire down. That's the big improvement with the newer EPA woodstoves - you CAN turn them down and they still maintain a hot-enough fire to be efficient. I've been looking for the same technology in a wood-furnace, but so far, no good. One exception though - is a system that ONLY runs full bore. You hook it to a heat-storage system, like large tanks of water, and only fire it up once every couple of days. You control inside temperature with the hot water flow, and not the actual fire. I was almost going to build one, but then said the heck with it. I've gotta' have time to work on my tractors too. Furnaces get boring.

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VaTom

02-28-2005 14:54:45




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-28-2005 06:17:48  
Love those old houses, but better you than me to live in one. (Same for the new baby.LOL) Not that my house has central heat either, built a house that needs no active heating system. Passive Annual Heat Storage is the system. No moving parts, just a lotta insulated dirt that cools us in the summer, storing the heat for winter. Bit of a climate difference there to here, I know. But we've got 8" of snow on the ground and it's still coming down. This place never goes below mid 60's. Or over 77°.

We've got 20k cu ft here and find a stove cozy for evenings. Burn 1 cord/yr. I've been wanting to find a used EPA stove for awhile. Around here, "used" generally means all but unused, decoration. I know they sell new ones, but my old Englander clone still works, just doesn't have EPA emissions. We never let ours smolder and my annual pipe cleaning yields maybe a pint of debris.

Next house is out of the ground, same style, but larger. It'll be 100% solar for the backup system beyond PAHS, including heating the indoor pool and domestic hot water. Thermostat controlled. Happened into a large quantity of solar panels, 480 sq ft. Now I need to find who sells bulk antifreeze for a 600 gal tank. Got lucky on the tank. It's an industrial pressure one with 1/2" thick walls. Was all my Cat could do to put it in place.

Good luck with your furnace search. I'm sure glad I don't live close down wind of an outdoor boiler. The ones I've seen here usually have creosote dripping off them and clouds of smoke. Actually picked up a monster, takes 4' logs, that used to backup heat 7 apartments from that solar system, if you want to come get it. Dragged it home and then learned it was way too big for my use. Not an outside version, needs a shed, or stick it in your new room. Then you could plumb your place for radiators. You don't have anything else to do this summer do you? VBG

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marlowe

02-27-2005 13:46:35




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
wast wood ????? i have burned wood for 30 years ONLY heat we have. first stove in living room 100 in living roon 50 in bath room not good went to forced air air tight in basement better but dirty and ins. don't like it. out side boiler three years ago first year i did burn a lot of wood because I did not know how to fire it but now i use very little wood first turn your water temp. down mines at 150 house at 78 shop at 65 DON'T over fill and use WET or GREEN wood i love PINE over oak any day or the most junky wood you can get old PALLETS are great. also NOT all out door stoves are equal. mine will burn any thing dry or green. been runing mine as of middle of OCT. and have NOT taken out any ash yet it burns that clean. live in wisc. two story farm house NO insulation. will not say what kind i have but you better check around

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jdemaris

02-27-2005 14:53:27




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to marlowe, 02-27-2005 13:46:35  
So, you are saying you have a very good woodfurnace, but its make is a secret?



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marlowe

02-27-2005 15:16:31




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 14:53:27  
I DON'T SELL EM BUT IT'S A JOHNSON



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Midwest redneck

02-27-2005 13:44:34




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
I have a Lopi Answer model wood stove, I love it burns clean. 70% eff. Search the web for stove makers. My stove uses one piece of wood per hour with the damper all the way open.



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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

02-27-2005 11:21:30




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 10:33:19  
Interesting lead on the furnace. They don't provide much information on the website, though.

It's frustrating the prejudice wood-stove types have against outdoor furnaces. Maybe if the builders put smaller doors on their units with dire warnings about burning poor-quality wood, their image would improve. I hope things change before I buy an outdoor unit next fall.



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jdemaris

02-27-2005 14:25:24




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to Rod in Smiths Falls, ON, , 02-27-2005 11:21:30  
The following website has a little more info on the EPA rated furnace at:>Link

Scroll down their page and click on the EPA Caddy furnace. With some of the replies here, I'm not sure I made it clear - but I already have a woodstove that I like very much - but it's not sufficient for whole house heating, especially when it's 30F below zero. And, I have two wood furnaces, one in my house and one in my shop and barn. And, I've got nothing against outdoor furnaces per sé, just the lack of available technology in their design. We've got them all over here, and they are all bacially the same as far as combustion design does. Some are more rugged than others, some look better than others, etc. - but they are all inefficient if compared to what they could be with improved combustion design. I've read a few arguments made by outdoor boiler designers that claim combustion chamber efficiency is limited due to the water-jacket keeping the fire temperature too low. I don't know if that's true or not. I know many people that have more wood on the farm then they could ever burn, so for them, it's no big deal. For me, I'm not particularly young anymore, all my kids are grown and gone (except for a new 1 year old who so far refuses to work), and even though I've got 100 acres of woods, it still has to be gathered and/or cut, loaded, unloaded, big pieces split, etc. When I mentioned "wasting" wood . . . well, if you could possibly heat an area with 50% less wood by using better combustion technology, then, in this context, using a lower tech. furnace IS wasting wood even though it heats the house fine. I suspect the EPA Caddy furnace, if someone wants an inside forced hot-air unit, to be the most efficient on the market. For hot-water boilers, it looks as though the H.S. Tarm is the most promising - but I do not know anyone that has one. I've heard they are very expensive - but might be worth it in the long run. Their website is at: Link

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Wardner

02-27-2005 15:48:22




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 14:25:24  
I have a large HS Tarm wood/gas combo unit. I installed it many years ago but my brother now lives in the space and replaced it with a high efficiency all gas unit. I am in MA. Email me if you want.



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paul

02-27-2005 15:24:42




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 Re: High efficiency wood-furnaces? in reply to jdemaris, 02-27-2005 14:25:24  
The AHS boilers are also well spolen of. There are abour 6 other good indoor wood boilers. I am istalling a Harmon, price & dealer worked out the best.

--->Paul



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