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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarket pa

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jdemaris

03-18-2005 20:46:24




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I'm wondering how you could ascertain the difference in quality between OEM pistons and aftermarket - if there is any. I've been working on engines for 40 years - but - when it comes to diesel engines in tractors, I never gave it a lot of thought - I've assumed replacement parts either from the dealer or aftermarket are designed to OEM specs and the engineers have done there work. My concern is particularly with diesels because of the higher compression ratio and ether use. I rebuilt a little 152 Deere engine for a friend last year in a 350 dozer. He had previously shattered all the top piston rings from ether use - but the engine had a lot of hours on it anyway - so it was no big deal. I've seen MANY Deeres with no tops rings left at all. I've also seen the same on many other diesels, especially if they have conventional square-cut top piston rings. Keystone rings seem to hold up much better. Anyway, point to my story is - we bought aftermarket parts from A&I. Well, the guy ruined the engine again. Had no block heater on it this engine, wanted to use it several times this when it was very cold, and loaded it up with ether to get it running. The difference this time though, is the pistons are in pieces - shattered. As I said, I've seen lots of top rings shattered, and piston grooves with gouges in them, but I've never seen fairly new pistons break apart like this before. So, now I'm wondering about quality. The pistons that Deere sells must be made for them to certain specs. Maybe forged aluminum or Mahle - I don't know? So, my question is - does anyone know of a way of identifying the piston materials and comparing? I may go back to the guys place and do a few tests by smashing some pistons with a hammer and see how they shatter. Not very scientific, but - I think forged aluminum is grainy, and cast aluminum is crystaline. I don't know what the actual construction is for the OEM parts, but in this case, they seem to be quite a bit more rugged.

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NEsota

03-19-2005 11:16:38




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-18-2005 20:46:24  
This has been a great discussion, may not change my life much but it is good reading. Thank you.



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Mike M

03-19-2005 05:41:36




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-18-2005 20:46:24  
I'm also not discounting that the engine was in better shape and had higher compression and that ether may have been more deadly as a result. When you go over to hammer on those pistons give that guy a few taps upside the head.LOL



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fixerupper

03-19-2005 19:04:00




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to Mike M, 03-19-2005 05:41:36  
A former neighbor of mine had a 190XT Allis that was cranking too slow to start so he would throw the battery charger on it, unscrew the pipe plug in the intake manifold and spray ether in for a godawful long time. When he hit the starter it would kick back a few times and then start with a deafening knock that continued until the ether was cleared out. I ended up overhauling it for him not too long after that and the pistons appeared to be OK but the rods were bent. It was then that I discovered it was cranking slow because the battery terminals were corroded.

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buickanddeere

03-19-2005 07:25:26




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to Mike M, 03-19-2005 05:41:36  
As for ether it's best never used as too many people ruin engines with it. Amen on trying to drive some sense into the fool owner's head. How could this person have enough money to do a rebuild and could not afford a $39.99 block heater? Forged aluminium Deere pistons or pistons which really do meet Deere specs. The injectors have to be returned to factory specs or the engine still won't start and the goof will use ether again. The bottom end maybe damaged from the high pressure shock waves that broke the pistons. How about selling the dozer out from under the owner. You would do him and the world a favour. As he is obviously too irresponsible to be trusted with machinery.

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jdemaris

03-19-2005 20:18:45




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to buickanddeere, 03-19-2005 07:25:26  
Fuel injectors are usually the least of the problems when it comes to cold-weather starting with the smaller Deere engines. Cold starting was a major issue with Deere engines for many years and we did a lot of experimenting. So did Deere Company. Head gasket thickness, piston standout above block deck, valve-head recess in the cylinder head, distance from top ring groove to head of piston were the major factors we had to deal with. I'm not saying that good injectors aren't necessary, but I've pulled some good starting Deeres and found the injectors to be very bad - half plugged and dribbling fuel with virtually no atomization. As far as the bottom end on this 350, it's fine so far. It's a pretty rugged engine with a massive crank and crank-journals. As far a figuring why he can waste money on engine parts, and not have a block heater? I ask the same d*mn question. He's an old friend, so I guess for that I pay the penalty. I already rebuilt it for him once - more or less for free. He paid for the parts, I donated the labor - and I guess he owes me a favor. Now that he's done it again, one side of me want to tell him to find someone else - but he IS installing a block heater this time. He's a nice guy, and a heck of good stone mason. He helped me finish a large chimney and a brick oven and fireplace, much of which we had to do in the snow. So, he does me favors also.

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dr.sportster

03-19-2005 05:30:28




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-18-2005 20:46:24  
jdemaris,You always help others with helpful consise info.I will tell you I know nothing about diesel other than taking "fundamentals of diesel engines course" in the military years ago.Worse yet what I will say has to do with Harleys;The cast pistom looks more greyish in color.The forged look somewhat more like a piece of machined billet alum. and light silverish appearance.I think breaking them will also tell.

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RAB

03-19-2005 00:40:19




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-18-2005 20:46:24  
Maybe the Chinese or eastern Europeans are into replacement pistons? Maybe Akmed supplied them? Very cheap is usually nasty, but at the same time the OEMs are probably no better than the rest of the consignment made at the same time for other suppliers.
Pistons are probably perfectly OK for warm climate use, according to their tests, so take them back and complain and ask them to check and report on the quality, if there is very little wear. They may well have had a few complaints and have improved the new batches and will only do something for you if you go back with a problem.
Regards RAB

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jdemaris

03-19-2005 05:42:31




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to RAB, 03-19-2005 00:40:19  
I don't know where these pistons were made, but if I bought from Deere, I still wouldn't know. I came across a Chinese website last week that is making all kinds of engine parts for older U.S. diesels. Of all things, they're making pistons and sleeves for my Buda 344 engine in my Allis Chalmers HD6 dozer. So, who knows what you're getting whereever you buy? I just bought some machine-shop tools from McMaster - and one large tap I got (1 1/2" X 6) was made in Bosnia and Hergo... - something or other, and a large die was made in Ireland. That took me by surprise. I didn't think either of those places were into manufacturing. I remember back to Henry Ford and the Fordson tractor, and all the problems he had with the Irish built Fordson tractors and a bad heat-treating process. Yeah, I know this is many years later - but can I assume the Chinese have quality in mind when making parts for us? When they start making missles at $15 apiece, we're going to be in trouble (if they work).

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george md

03-18-2005 23:01:50




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-18-2005 20:46:24  
John, I have had an automotive machine and engine
rebuilding shop for the last almost 30 years and
the only oem pistons I have used are for IH cub
lowboy and only because there are no aftermarket
pistons for those. I am a Clevite distributor and
one step down the line for sealed power . I have used both SP and Clevite in Cat and Cummins road
trucks with no problems.I used IPD pistons in the
cat 3208 way back because they were the first to
market a 3 ring piston to replace the silly 2 ring
piston that cat put in them. 3 ring piston really
perked up a 3208,top ring was higher up the piston
and I think the comp height was a few thousanths
more. I have done many case,ih, and jd tractors
and crawlers , all with aftermarket parts and no
troubles with them. I have a 5000 ford coming in
to do for the second time , it's been 27 years since I did it the first time . Have a 580 ck
hoe in the shop , it has the Oring bores badly eroded and I have to bore out the damage and make
repair sleeves for it ,it was leaking water into
the oil. george

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jdemaris

03-19-2005 06:01:59




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to george md, 03-18-2005 23:01:50  
Yeah, I can say the same - up to now. At least with larger engines. I've used aftermarket with all my motorcyles, tractors, small-block Chevys, etc. I've have seen lots of problems with aftermarket parts with small stuff, especially chain saws, lawn & garden, etc. We had a meeting with some reps. from Stihl chainsaw company back in the late 60s in regard to some piston failures. At the time, Stihl had been using Mahle pistons and cylinders, but tried using some Japanese pistons for awhile, and we starting having problems. With tractors and such, 20-30 years ago we were buying M&W kits instead of OEM to rebuild engines. If anything, the parts seemed to be of better quality than OEM. Now, there are many companies offering engine parts. I've never encountered a quality problem previous to this - and with this particular case, I don't know if there IS a problem. But, for fairly new, unworn pistons, I've never seen them come apart like this. I'm not sure if I'm getting the truth from the owner about how much ether he used either. He ruined the engine the first time with ether, and I warned him about it. Said he was going to install a block heater, but he never did it. More on the subject of Chinese parts. I've been searching for new or a good-used diesel injector tester. I ran my old OTC unit over with a crawler. I've been kind of shocked at what they're selling for either new, or used, especially on Ebay. They are fairly simple devices. Buda used to sell one made from a bottle-jack. Well, I just came across a place selling Chinese diesel injector testers for $99! Comes with adapters and is rated up to 6000 PSI. Compare that to an OTC for $700 - $1000. So, I ordered one. Seems too good to be true, but guess I find out when UPS brings it.

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george md

03-19-2005 23:22:50




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-19-2005 06:01:59  
John, Keep us posted on the tester,as I have a Kiene

and a Bacharach that are worn out . Also have

a bachrach that works but is leaking but not

at the plunger seal. Seems to have a rivot or

pin thru the body and is seeping around it .

george



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Catskill Pete

03-19-2005 15:27:38




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to jdemaris, 03-19-2005 06:01:59  
Definately want to hear how you make out with the Chinese nozzle tester. I"ve seen some pretty decent prices on Polish built ones as well, but the foriegn built one make me nervous. So make it a point to post on how you like the new one.



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jdemaris

03-19-2005 20:04:03




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 Re: OEM diesel pistons sleeves versus aftermarke in reply to Catskill Pete, 03-19-2005 15:27:38  
I will post as soon as I get it and try it. In reality, there's no reason why a US built tester should cost much more than $100. $700-$1000 is just plain rediculous. All it requires is a hand-pump capable of generating up to 3000-4000 PSI, a fuel filter, a shut-off valve, and 5000 PSI gauge, and a line to hook the injector to. It could be done with a $15 bottle jack. I was just getting ready to buy a porta-power hand pump and use that when I came across the chinese nozzle tester.

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