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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off

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jdemaris

04-25-2005 20:13:05




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Just had a little problem and wondering if anyone has come up with a different way of fixing it than I did. I changed over my Case 580Ck diesel from 12 volt generator to 12 volt alternator. I wired it for a charge indicator light and ammeter. Also, at the same time, I removed the manual diesel shut-off from the RoosaMaster injection pump and installed an electric solenoid shut-off. Started it up, charged fine, but could not shut it off with the key. I had to cut the wire to the injection pump. Now, I know why this is happening - I guess - but I've never had this problem when wiring a gas engine with a battery coil ignition. I'm figuring that the electric diesel shut-off takes less current to energize than a battery coil does to run an engine and enough current is coming through the bulb? The indicator light is supposed to go out when the alternator starts charging because it is then getting equal voltage on both sides of the light bulb - therefore no current flow. So, in this case, seems once the alternator is charging, the current is backflowing through the bulb and making its way to my injection pump. I took a diode and put it in-line with the ignition feed to the idicator bulb and now it works fine. I've never encountered a diode in such a system before, and I'm wonder, what other ways are there to work around this? I assume if the ignition swith is an automotive type with a separatge ACC and IGN terminal it could be done that way since those two terminals are isolated when the key is off. But I'm not using such a switch - I've got a diesel tractor switch with a built-in glowplug position and an IGN terminal - no ACC.

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txgrn

04-26-2005 05:02:28




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 Re: Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off in reply to jdemaris, 04-25-2005 20:13:05  
Same problem with alternators and aftermarket electronic ignitions on tractors. Enough feedback to keep it energized. Diode required there also. Probably if you dug into automotive electronic ignitions you'd find a diode there also.

Mark



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Bob

04-25-2005 21:20:02




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 Re: Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off in reply to jdemaris, 04-25-2005 20:13:05  
What number bulb are you using as a charge indicator? There sure is a wide range of current draw ratings for minature lamps.

As long as it's now working with the diode, I wouldn't worry about it. I think you'd be surprised to know all the diodes and splices for that matter, that are hidden inside wiring harnesses of modern vehicles and equipment!



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Jon H

04-25-2005 22:36:40




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 Re: Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off in reply to Bob, 04-25-2005 21:20:02  
A few years ago when the $400 90 amp,self energizing alternator burned up on my Steiger tractor,I replaced it with a 1 wire 72 amp Delco. This was cheap,but did not work very well. I did not like having to rev the cold diesel engine to excite the 1 wire regulator,and the 72 amp alt was a little undersize and ran hot. The engine has an unused accessory pulley,so I decided to add another Delco alternator. I put 63 amp stators in both alternators to make the cooling chore easier,and used a standard regulator in one alternator,so atleast one would excite at a cold start,slow idle. The easiest source for switched 12V power to excite the standard regulator was the Cummins fuel solenoid power terminal. I installed a diode in the wire from the fuel solenoid to the Delco#1 excite terminal to prevent alternator back feed from keeping the fuel solenoid energized. It worked well,two fans to cool 126 amps keeps the alternators cool in dirty air,and will run a full accessory load at idle. The rebuild cost of the Delco alternators is a fraction of the cost of the original high dollar alternator,and running two alternators gives me the option of continuing to use the tractor at reduced electrical load if one alternator fails. This happened last harvest when one alternator had a front bearing fail. I removed the drive belt from the bad alternator,and worked the tractor all day. Worked fine as long as I did not have to Work late enough to need lights.

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jdemaris

04-26-2005 05:28:20




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 Re: Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off in reply to Jon H, 04-25-2005 22:36:40  
That's an interesting approach to get an ample charge rate. I know many tractor companies extend the heavy-duty rating of the alternators they use simply by putting large drive pulleys on them, thus cutting down the RPMS they turn. This makes their actual output substantially lower than the manufacturor's rating. Thinking back a few years when Deere was just changing over from Motorola to Delco and/or Nippodenso. We had many problems, especially with tractors running at low engine speeds with headlights on - or planting corn with 6 or more row planters and electric blowers on each row. White had a popular planter for awhile with a 6-8 amp blower on each row - so 6 rows needed around 40 amps to run - and the planting was often at low speed. The Motorolas didn't have the amp capacity. Neither did the standard Delcos (65 amp as I recall). And, to make things worse - the Delcos would trash bearings and brush slip-rings since they don't handle dust very well. The Nippos did much better but we had to put small drive pulleys on them to get their RPMs up. And, the Nippos are expensive. The small pulley can cause a problem of belt slippage, and somtimes you need dual belt drive. With the corn planters, we had quite a few customers mounting a large deep-cycle battery on the corn-planter and charging it before each use instead of trying to rely on an alternator. The tractor companies buy what is available from the automotive industry, and it seems alternator design has advanced enough now, that there are many high-output alternators available cheap. Problem now is finding one with good sealed bearings for tractor use. I've been using Hitachis off of Subarus, and they hold up MUCH better than the Delcos.

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Ken Macfarlane

04-26-2005 09:49:58




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 Re: Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off in reply to jdemaris, 04-26-2005 05:28:20  
The Toyota trucks use an alternator that lasts well in grit and mud from my off-roading days. Many guys would slap a CS130 delco on to help recharge the battery after winching but the things died the first dunk in a mud hole. Soon they would have the stock 65 amp one back on.



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Jon H

04-25-2005 22:54:39




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 Re: Alternator won't let diesel engine shut off in reply to Jon H, 04-25-2005 22:36:40  
Forgot to add to my first post, how to keep the backfeed through the charge light from keeping the fuel solenoid energized? I had somthing similar with a combine that I repowered with a 292 propane fueled chevy. I used an accessory relay to power the 292's HEI ignition directly from the battery. Problem was that the small resistor the combine had in the exciter wire to the 10SI Delco alternator would backfeed enough power through that little resistor to keep the accessory relay energized and ignition powered up. This was only a problem if I had no accessory load turned on. I quickly learned to keep the cab blower turned on when I wanted to shut the combine engine off. The added load of the cab blower pulled the alternator backfeed voltage through the exciter resistor,low enough so the accessory relay would open,and the engine shut down.

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