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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Steam engine question?

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Chances R

05-11-2005 19:20:59




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I was asked the other day if a steam engine would use water in temps below 32*. (Assuming there was a need to use a steam engine in weather below 32*) If so i will assume they had to empty it every night or keep it running, or did they use something other than or with water?




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Coldiron

05-12-2005 10:13:52




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to Chances R, 05-11-2005 19:20:59  
Chances Are, I fired boilers 1958 to 2003 and believe me there were winters when the only warmth was up next to the brickwork. Boilers have to have combustion air and the boiler rooms are generally open so the air can get into the forced draft fans for combustion. There are a lot of different ways to get the water into the boiler but the colder the makeup water the more btu`s it is going to take to make the steam. You try to get it through a contact heater or Deareator tank to heat the water to flash off the gasses that are destructive to the water sides of the boiler. Boilers can work into the minus deg ambient temps or as some call it sub zero temps. The older pneumatic instruments would freeze up if there were moisture in the lines which would cause failure but with the newer electronic there is little worry like it was years ago. The boilers I fired by complete manual operation had their problems in cold weather if the makeup water was very cold, it would shrink the water level which would hang low until the heat was in the mass again then the level would jump up so if you added a lot when low now you would have extreme high water and it would go out into the system causing damage to equipment, pipes etc. After you got the feel of it things went pretty smooth.

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Coldiron

05-12-2005 10:25:11




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 cont`d in reply to Coldiron, 05-12-2005 10:13:52  
Got pretty long so stopped it there. The steam engines would run so long as the exhaust was open and the used portion could vent. When they were stopped they were completely drained in any kind of weather and they were warmed slowly by entering live steam into them. Drains were kept wide open until the noise became unbearable then closed a bit to ease the noise and increase the temps. Sometime the fireman would stay with the equip when it wasn`t operating to make sure it didn`t freeze up. The major problem would have been a frozen water system to supply the boiler supplying the steam to the engine or whatever tool being driven by the steam supply.

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greenbeanman in Kansas

05-12-2005 05:28:29




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to Chances R, 05-11-2005 19:20:59  
In "Dry Divide" or "Horse of a Different Color" by Ralph Moody, in one of them he speaks of the thresher operater banking the fire and waiting the next morning for it to get back up to operational temperature.

You must remember too that a quantity of water stores a lot of BTUs and it would take a long time for the water in a tanker or boiler to freeze. The piping however would present a problem.

If any of you enjoy reading books I think that you would enjoy most or all of Ralph Moody"s works.

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Coloken

05-11-2005 20:16:28




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to Chances R, 05-11-2005 19:20:59  
Yes they ran like railroad engines in all kinds of weather. When train was not running the engine still had to be fired up to keep warm. If let cool off, seams and such could shrink and cause all kinds of problems and leaks. My dad fire-maned out of Omaha about 1905. In the case of like a threaser engine In cold weather I would think they kept it warm cause it would take a while to get up steam from a cold start. would have to drain every thing at end of season. I grew up with water in car radiators and let me tell you that was a problem.

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Maine Fordson

05-11-2005 23:10:06




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 Re: Steam engine question in reply to Coloken, 05-11-2005 20:16:28  
[IMG]http://img63.echo.cx/img63/3998/lombardloghauler2qi.th.jpg[/IMG]

Here in Maine a hundred years ago they used "forest locomotives" (steam-powered, track-driven tractors) to haul logs, and *only* in the winter: The "roads" were frozen (and often, after a fresh snowfall, glazed with a dose of water from a sled with a sprayer) so the logs would slide right along. A bit dangerous for the horses to work on, especially on steep grades...

"Lombard Log Haulers, produced in Alvin O. Lombard's Waterville (Maine) factory, featured the first-ever useable patent on a track-driven vehicle. In 1903, the founders of the Caterpillar Corporation paid Lombard $60,000 so they could produce vehicles under his patent. Every track-driven vehicle in the world today, including army tanks, snowmobiles, and heavy equipment, all stem from Lombard’s original patented invention. Lombard’s original hauler was driven by steam, but he continued to adapt it to the times, eventually producing a gasoline-powered hauler as well. The eventual arrival of gasoline-powered lumber trucks rendered the Lombards obsolete; there are currently a handful of these vehicles still in existence, mostly in New England."

Because these machine were costly to purchase, the lumber companies kept them operating 24/7 (after all, they were paying interest on the note, so they might as well be getting some work out of the iron beasts...). So, it was never really a question of antifreeze, because the boiler was almost always fired up and at (or near) operating temperature.

Several of the lumbermen's museums here in Maine have working examples of these; they're certainly a sight to see.

The image hosting link I have been using isn't working for me tonight, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the pic will show up OK...

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G.King

05-13-2005 06:22:31




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 Re: Steam engine question in reply to Maine Fordson, 05-11-2005 23:10:06  
The Lincoln Maine Historical Society has the black and white glass plate negative of this picture taken by a Lincoln photographer. Somebody has colorized it and put it on a post card. These two machines belonged to the McGregor Spool Mill in Lincoln, Maine and it is said they hauled spool bars from Bower Bank to South Lincoln, Maine which is over 50 miles.



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RandyR

05-11-2005 20:13:25




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to Chances R, 05-11-2005 19:20:59  
A steam engine would use straight water all the time, even below 32 deg. But it would be drained out when not in use.
And of course there would be a need to use it in cold weather. I've got videos of steam locomotives plowing snow off the tracks, and pushing steam powered snow blowers. These were in the 1930s,40s, and 50s.



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buickanddeere

05-11-2005 21:33:13




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to RandyR, 05-11-2005 20:13:25  
Steam powered snowblowers?



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jhill

05-12-2005 11:16:09




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to buickanddeere, 05-11-2005 21:33:13  
I have seen them using one on RFD TV on one of the train programs. Very Impressive. The problem with them is they basically just push the snow into the blower. Take 4 locomotives to do it and then they get stalled.



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J.C. IN AZ.

05-11-2005 22:27:40




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to buickanddeere, 05-11-2005 21:33:13  
A Steam Powered Snow Blower is still at the ready and used frequently on the "Cumbres and Toltec Railroad" which was at one time the Rio Grande Southerns prime Line from Antonito Colorado to Durango Colorado and points north and west.The Tourist line now runs from Antonito to Chama N.M.There were two of them Built but one was damaged beyond repair and only one remains Operational.I believe it is Domiciled at Chama N.M.

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Ducknose Bob

05-11-2005 21:57:52




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to buickanddeere, 05-11-2005 21:33:13  
Rotary Snow Plow



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Bob

05-11-2005 20:10:16




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 Re: Steam engine question? in reply to Chances R, 05-11-2005 19:20:59  
In the old days, they would probably banked the firs and kept it warm overnight, or drained it for a longer "out of service".

There would have been NO antifreeze that would have worked in a steam engine.



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