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OT: need advice from machinists

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Midwest redneck

09-10-2005 15:50:54

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As some of you guys remember my company is going to close in about 5 months. I have been looking for another job and will likely get an offer from the company buying us. The job market stinks. I still have this feeling that I need to start my own machine shop in addition to getting a new job. My garage is all set up for buying a vertical mill, a lathe and surface grinder and cutoff saw. My questions for you guys: I believe that my hourly rate should be 35/hour minimum and then charge more for more difficult work. Does this sound right? It does to me. I would like to borrow $10k from my parents, dont know how that would go over, I have never borrowed money from them before. One of the main reasons for me starting my own shop is because I would control my own destiny instead of a mega-large company kicking me out to the street like a piece of old furniture when I am 53 years old. or younger like now, I am 36 now. Here is another question, how good are the Clausing Atlas milling machines? How good are the Wilton Milling machines? The Wilton has a single phase 3horse motor on their mill, dont need a phase converter on it. I may be able to get a good old lathe from an old friend for a good price. I believe that I will need $35k for all the stuff I will need to get started. If you have your own machine shop or work in one give me your advice I know that Dave in SC has one at least I remember him saying so. I would mostly make fixture pieces, details, and prototype pieces. No high production stuff because I wont have a CNC machine. And no big molds or complex dies unless I think I can do the work and make money. What do you think?

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Joe(TX)

09-12-2005 06:01:46

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

What type of tooling is on the Wilton and Clausing mills? A lot depends on which model machines they are. Some had tooling which are not as common and can be expensive if none is included. R8 or catagory 30 (there are several types) are more common.
A rotary phase converter can handle the 3 ph issue with no problem. I have a Bridgeport clone and a Clausing lathe (7 1/2 hp) I run in my home shop on a phase converter that I built.

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Midwest redneck

09-12-2005 10:59:54

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Joe(TX), 09-12-2005 06:01:46

the Wilton and Clausing mills have the R8 collet setup, looks like, smells like, runs almost as good as a bridgeport.

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scdietsche

09-11-2005 18:47:02

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

starting a successful business doesn't just happen... it takes time

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jfp

09-11-2005 08:22:44

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

There is alot of do's and don'ts in starting a small bussiness. The first advice is to listen to BOBMO , he is being straight with you. One reason your current company is selling out is because it is not successful enough in some way. Do not borrow from family or friends .. There are _not many differences between you and your boss. Your boss was willing to start a bussiness and taking a chance on failing or not. It's always like that. I have had 3 of my own fail, but I am learning what makes a go or no-go in it. Do you think I'll give up, not hardly. There are 2 books that you should read ; ( and every one else also ), Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki and his fourth book Retire Young Retire Rich. You must read the first in order to understand the fourth book but all are written for easy understanding. You will find he has Christian values and it will open your mind ( & hope ). As for your hourly rates I know framing carpenters that make 50 an hour with less than 1k invested in tools other than a vehicle to haul the stuff. Most just have regular pu or van. My best advice dig all the information you can get, even talking to former companies successful or not. Find to find out what makes go or no-go. Good luck.

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dr.sportster

09-11-2005 07:10:46

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

The cost of electricity is going to rise quite alot by winter.Just trying to be helpful.

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cdmn

09-10-2005 21:14:36

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

I'd say go to some Small Business Administration sponsored workshops. They know what investment it takes to carry a person. I'll bet they will tell you you need about $500,000 in capital, or more to support one employee. Compare to an average farmer, or even an owner-operator trucking operation. A friend of mine started out by saying he wanted to make at least twice as much if he was working for himself instead of a company, or else it wasn't worth giving up the advantages(?)of a big organization. He operated a high-end used car lot.
Another guy I listened to said any business he started would have to be able to make money for him even if he was injured, sick, or on vacation. He ended up starting campground condominiums all over the country. Sold a few lots, used the money to finance another one. Hired managers and began to live off the rent. That's how it's done. Too late for that idea now. Back then, I found it hard to imagine so many people would live in aluminum houses after they retired.
It's really hard to make a living doing what is a hobby for other people. Some shops up here demand $200 minimum before you get in the door. Then they tell you it's a 4 week wait to get on the schedule. They'd just as soon make the hobbyists go and bug someone else.
If I were to get serious, I'd want a waterjet machine and some wire-edm-machines (Both of which can be leased). You'll need to run them around the clock. You'd need multiple operators, multiple marketing types, multiple business types and at least a couple programmers. Say a nice little company with $1million a year payroll, and yours being 10% off the top for a management fee. Just another note: About 10 years ago, I believe our shop was thriving with about $30 per hour overhead, and $20 per hour wages. Overhead went up (accountants can do that) and the business died. I'm out of touch now.

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Paul in Mich

09-10-2005 20:03:55

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

Redneck, having been a machinist for over 30 years, I have a couple of thoughts on what I personally would do if I were starting a small job shop. First of all any machine shop worth having would have a Bridgeport series I knee mill, with D.R.O and a good Kurt vise on a swivel base. I"d have a Clausing Colchester lathe with 3 and 4 jaw chuck along with a collett system. Then a good floor model drill press for detailing and deburring. If you are planning on doing prototype work or fixturing, try to finid an older C.N.C. mill, preferably with conversational programming. I did a ton of work on a Hurco KMB 1 and while those are really old machines now, they are extreemly fast from print to part. Once you are in business a while, you can always upgrade as capital permits. There are certainly other C.N.C."s out there, and they are almost a must if you are going to do fixturing, since they will hold tenths, which is almost imperative in todays production world. A surface grinder is nice to have, and good for grinding flat surfaces, and grinding tooling. A good carbide tool grinder is, while not imperative, certainly useful. A man once told me that a successful machine shop will start out with a minimum investment, then you go out and get the work to justify bigger and faster machines. It is general knowledge that you can"t afford to simply go out and buy a $100,000.00 machine. The work has to be there so that a machine can pay for itself. Getting work is not that hard since many companies do not want to be bothered with runs of less than 100 pieces, despite what they say about small lot size manufacturing. That in turn makes jigs and fixtures even more relevant. Good luck. Keep us informed as to how you progress.

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09-10-2005 19:51:19

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

Hey Mid,
The shop rate where I work is $60... seems to be the going rate around here... shops are so busy, it's hard to find someone to take on a job! As far as types of machines... I'm sure everyone has their preferences (just as in tractors), but what I recently learned is that it's most important to buy machines that you can get replacement parts for! We have an old Bridgeport mill... totally rebuilt it a couple months back... works as good as new (better than the cheap chinese junk being sold now)... an off brand that might seem to be a bargain today might be more expensive in the long run! As far as borrowing money from family... I recently pondered that myself. Finally decided that's something I just did not want to do... figured another angle to get the cash I needed! Best of Luck!!!
Regards, DL

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BobMo

09-10-2005 19:34:15

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

Mr. Redneck my good man. Unfortunately you are way off base. Having been an estimator, machine planner & purchasing manager for a large engineering firm for more than 30 years let me assist you. The rates you charge can not be arbitrary but must be based on costs. These costs are an accumulation of equipment costs, space cost, power, and other supplies. On top of that you must add cost of material with markup and your wages. Your wages are what ever you may want to draw for your labor. Your equipment costs are based on maintenance cost and declining worth with per hour cost for replacement. (Example) if you buy an old lath for 5000 dollars and you think it will run for 5000 hours but by replacement time it will cost 10,000 to replace you must put in 2 per hour into a sinking fund for replacement of that unit. That goes for all equipment in your shop. Space may appear to be free but it is not. Be realistic. You have 2 types of overhead costs. Fixed which includes rent or building payments. (Things which do not change) Fluctuating which change monthly, power, tools (expendable) and wages.
Remember there are 2 types of machine shops. Those going into business and those going out. Those going into business usually wind up cutting the throat of their competitors and their own at the same time. I�m not taking anything away from your ability but the best machinist in the world a good businessman does not necessarily make. Good luck in what ever you choose to do.

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Davis In SC

09-10-2005 19:58:10

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to BobMo, 09-10-2005 19:34:15

Bob, I am one going out...Trying to cut my losses now.. The tool& die business is dead... Customers I worked around the clock for... now send the best jobs to China, & have the nerve to ask me to make them work, for Free.... They can rot & burn , for all I care...I even told one that , last week... :^) I want to get out of toolmaking & just set up a general machine shop, turn shafts, cut keyways, welding. all on a take it or leave it basis, my terms... & some days , not even open up, if there is an opportunity to make more money doing something else...

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george md

09-10-2005 22:31:26

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Davis In SC, 09-10-2005 19:58:10

Davis, Sounds like you want to do what I am basically doing now. Shop is both automotive machine and regular machine shop. I do truck , tractor , and
industrial engines mostly, also car engine if someone really gets me in a corner. Used to do quote a lot of equipment repair , but the body says forget it now . Machine shop is the typical
old worn out lathes and mills including a Lucas
3 inch horizontal boring mill. I do a lot of bearing bore repair (some metal spray and some
bore and bush ) shaft repair metal spray and spray
weld , the usual keyways inside and out. I have done oxy/acet cast iron welding for many years but
that seems to be one of the things that few others
are willing to do. About 1/3 to 1/2 of my work
comes from other shops , things they can't or won't do . Wet liner engines erode where the orings seal , I make and install repair sleeves
for some engines , just did a 188 case block .
also do repair and line bore on loader arms where
the bucket pivots . Seems like if it's odd or weird it shows up here.

george

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NC Wayne

09-10-2005 18:28:27

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

I have to agree with the posts below on the rates, $50 give or take an hour is very reasonable if you do good work. As far as the getting paid part of it goes, unless it's a longtime, trusted customer, get set up to take credit cards. I've talked to Dad about it lately, trying to get him to set us up since many companies nowdays like to go that route. I asked the shop forman at one of our local equipment dealerships about it the other day when we were talking about deadbeatr customers. He said when they give an estimate for a job they tell the customer they have to have their card info on file before they start a job, but that it won't be charged til the job is completed. They can then verify that there is enough available to cover their repairs before they even start. If anything over the estimate arises they notify the customer and get his Ok before they do it. When the job is done the customer has the option of leaving everything on the card or using another form of payment. As long as you add in enough to cover the cost of the card service your not losing anything this way but your sure making getting paid alot more sure.

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george md

09-10-2005 22:40:13

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to NC Wayne, 09-10-2005 18:28:27

Wayne,

Watch the credit cards , they have several months to file a complaint,and the card co will pull the money out of your account. Cash is best , spends anywhere.

george

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NC Wayne

09-11-2005 18:27:14

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to george md, 09-10-2005 22:40:13

The problem with cash is not many people have thousands in cash lying around to pay for a job while they do have that much credit. As long as you have their signature authorizing the charges for doing the work, and their signature stating the work was completed to their satisfaction, and again authorizing the charges then they don't have a leg to stand on. True, they can call the card company, and try to get the charge deleted, and it may even got through, if they can prove tothe card company that the charges were false. In the end though the fact that they signed two different stating the charges were in fact authorized by them and the work was complete leaves them open to a lawsuit. Now as long as you also make sure that the paperwork they sign states any and all charges, including court costs, involved in collecting a debt is also their responsibility then they'd be stupid to chance pulling a stunt like that unless there really was a valid reason. Nothing in business is cut-n-dried, and there is no 100% sure way to collect your money, short of cash, but all you can do is the best you can and have a little trust.

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msb

09-10-2005 18:00:18

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

The equipment and location are not a problem.The question should be,how good of a salesman are you?Like to sell? If not I would probably look to work for someone else.About anyone can do machine work if properly trained and equipped.The big part to being successful is getting the work and keeping the customer base.
Don't be concerned about whether the equipment is single phase or 3 phase.All you need to generate 3 phase is a 3 phase motor and a weight on the shaft.Turn on the current and give the shaft a spin.

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Midwest redneck

09-10-2005 18:04:59

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to msb, 09-10-2005 18:00:18

As far as being a salesmen, I look very professional and I know the trade and the business. I have been a toolmaker-machinist for over 10 years. The way to get sales and keep them is to help the customer out when he is in a bind, like hot work that has to get done fast. When you do that you have a loyal customer--at least for the next job that comes up.

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msb

09-10-2005 21:04:19

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 18:04:59

Sounds like you will do fine.The first thing most business men need to identify is what sets them apart from the competition and why would anyone want to do business with them. Being able to do the hot work is what you have to sell as well as the experience you bring to the table.Good luck my friend,bob

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Easy

09-10-2005 17:26:27

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

My father had his own shop for 20+ years. It some good money then. Now one of his friends is still trying, but goes weeks or months without a paying job. A friend of mine has gone from a 12 man shop in an industrial park to working by himself in the polebarn out back. I wanted to start my own shop for years, but I have given up that idea. Whatever you do, get things in writing, getting work is one thing, getting paid can be much more difficult. Good luck!! Easy.

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Davis In SC

09-10-2005 17:25:38

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 15:50:54

If I were setting up a shop to do general machine work...This is what I would do... Used machines are going for a song now, So I would find good used ones. I would stick to a Bridgeport, get the long table, Power feed on X axis, & DRO.. Good used 15 or 17 inch Colchester lathe, a good-sized Kalamazoo, Marvel, DoAll, or Wells horizontal saw...a Harig 6-18 or 6-12 surface grinder, & a vertical band saw, DoAll or Grob...A 20 inch drill press, probably Clausing... Add a Stick & TIG welding outfit, & you can do most Jobs... We charge 50.00/hr at our shop, but usually cut decent customers a break on the hours involved in a job. The ones that are Slow-paying, or Difficult to deal with, I quote prices up front, take it or leave it. Actually , I would prefer not to even deal with some of them, but they are also customers of my Business partner's other business, so I get stuck having to deal with them... It often takes a year or more to get paid by some of them.. The biggest problem you will face in a shop, is getting paid on a timely basis... I spend a considerable portion of my time chasing money, often from some large well-known companies... Email me if you have any questions. davismark6 at aol dot com Just replace the at & dot

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Midwest redneck

09-10-2005 17:53:22

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Davis In SC, 09-10-2005 17:25:38

Thanks for the input. I have had 3 companies tell me that they would like to have me quote work, mostly fixture details. Being a small one man band in my garage gives me almost zero overhead and they get a good price. If they dont pay then they go to the COD payment plan. A good friend of mine who I also work with is leaving to go back to his other employer. And his old employer buys tons of prototype and small production jobs and pays top dollar, well over 60/hr. they also pay top dollar for emergency work, like gotta have it in 48 hrs. or less. I would like to get a good old bridgeport, and a good old Clausing lathe, but getting big good lathes that are in very good shape is hard. I would like to get a clausing, or Harig 6-18 surface grinder. I will be removing all of my tools from where I work, they belong to my employer and I asked my boss if I could have them and he said he didnt care. I will also take a punch former from work. I have about $1k in perishable tooling, I will have to buy a small surface plate and a set of gage blocks--toolroom grade on both. these arent too expensive. If I could have the lathe that my old friend has then I would guess he would want $3-4K for it. The lathe he has is an old German lathe from the 50's and it is a 5HP--13" swing and about 30" on the length. At where I work I use a Lodge and Shipley 1408 VSD, 7.5 HP. It runs like a swiss watch, I may be able to pick this up for a song from the new owners. Of course is needs 3phase 208Volts. I may not be able to run this in my garage, we will see. I think it stinks that the machine tool makers dont make single phase manual equipment for the hobby machinists.

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Bill WI

09-11-2005 08:25:23

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 17:53:22

Some lathes are simple to switch to a reversable single phase motor. Mills are a different story.

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09-10-2005 19:41:10

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 17:53:22

Hey Mid,
Rotary phase converters are cheap and produce clean power... don't sweat the small stuff!
Regards, DL

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Davis In SC

09-10-2005 18:30:28

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 17:53:22

Midwest, I think the key to success is to do lots of smaller jobs.. Ones of a thousand dollars or less. They need them in a hurry, & there is not time to "Price Shop", & no risk of getting them done off shore. Most companies will let engineers spend 500-1000.00 with little or no approval, this keeps the purchasing agents out of the equation... A friend that has a small shop has landed a good customer.. a big outfit, that fixes things on the weekend. He usually gets a call on Sat. morning, goes to see what they need, makes the parts & gets them there on Sunday. They are willing to pay a big premium to get them done on the weekend, so they can start back up on Monday...

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Midwest redneck

09-11-2005 04:37:32

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Davis In SC, 09-10-2005 18:30:28

You are thinking right up my alley. A lot of work I do now at my employer and for my employer is hot work and gotta have it now without prints. The hourly rate for my own shop would be minimum $50...for the hot work especially when I am working at 10oclock at night to get somebodys stuff done. And you are also correct about small jobs, the $250 fixture plate or the $150 coupler that broke or the special size bolt that cant be bought now like a 1"3/8-12unf, I would make that and charge $50/hr for it. The big fixtures that would be $6000-$10,000 would require signatures first and a down payment too. Keep in mind that my $35/hour rate would be for time only and the material would be added on to the 35/hour rate. 6 months ago I went to look at a chinese milling machine, junk...I didnt buy it but the guy selling talked for a long time. He is my age and was laid off and his employer said "buy yourself a mill and a bandsaw and we will subcontract you at $25/hour". Of course I am sure that he got more than 25/hour because he just milked the work and he also mentioned that he also got some hot work from a big supplier, on that job he made a fixture jig and had to drill a cross hole on over a thousand pieces of something. He averaged $100/hour for his time on that job. Thanks for the input.

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Desert machinist

09-10-2005 17:33:29

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Davis In SC, 09-10-2005 17:25:38

It sounds like you have my customers. A big company just decided to give themselves a 3% discount. So I bumped my prices by 10%. Fair trade I thought. $50.00 an hour is way fair, $60 is getting to look pretty good with $3.00 diesel.

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Davis In SC

09-10-2005 17:54:32

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Desert machinist, 09-10-2005 17:33:29

Desert, raising rates is a smart move... I am going to be getting in a junk Chinese mold in the next week or so.... The Co. saved a few dollars getting it built by Commies.. Shop rate for China Molds is going up to 100.00 hour, take it or leave it... If they do not want to pay that. I will haul scrap metal, or go sell stuff at the flea market :^) I plan to tell them that Higher price is to cover disinfecting to avoid risk of the SARS virus from China. I do plan to disinfect things as I disassemble it.

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Midwest redneck

09-10-2005 18:01:17

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Davis In SC, 09-10-2005 17:54:32

Yeah, China stuff is crap. The company I work for jumped on the commie band wagon 2 years ago to get parts machined in China. The stuff looked like a high-school kid whittled on steel with a dull cutter and it looked terrible, and the prices were not that much cheaper then USA made stuff. The big companies are too cheap to pay for good machining, if you can get money out them for fixing Chinese junk then great--take them to the bank.

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Davis In SC

09-10-2005 18:15:14

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-10-2005 18:01:17

The true cost of cheap tooling is hidden... They do not count the trips over to China, Air shipping of samples, Phone calls, etc... In the long run , they pay more for it, & often it is unusable... The last 2 ChiCom molds that came through our shop were a joke... I recommended that they be scrapped, no way to make Chicken Salad out of Chicken S%^t... I did not even want to get involved in the problems that they could cause.. One was for a small part that went in a Luxury Automobile, proction line had to start in a week... I hope they got parts out of it, LOL I better stop before I start ranting..

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Midwest redneck

09-11-2005 04:43:36

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Davis In SC, 09-10-2005 18:15:14

I have a funny one for ya on shipping and rec. costs over to the orient. My old employer, Eaton corp. in the Mich. area. Wanted a cost savings, like everybody. And some snot nosed punk kid that worked there figured out that they could get plastic pieces made in S. Korea, it costs 20% less, all the managers gave this kid a pat on the back an atta boy. Well 1 month into the cost savings they realized that the returnable dunnage of the trays cost more than expected and the 20% cost savings was all gone and it actually cost more to go to Korea then getting it done in N. America. It make me laugh in their face. Thats what happens when bean counters run a mfg. company.

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504

09-11-2005 20:13:25

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Re: OT: need advice from machinists in reply to Midwest redneck, 09-11-2005 04:43:36

Call the SCORE chapter in your area they will give you very good and free advice on starting your own business.

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