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time for this old guy to retire/new electronics.

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thejdman01

10-04-2005 13:35:22

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went to an eaton seminar today about the new automatic traction controls they have coming out. they also got inot air brakes. and the new ebs (electronic braking systems) already in use in europe that they expect to be in the us w/in 5 years. in semis wont be a treadle valve anymore connected to air it will be a ?sp potentiometer which sends a signal to your comptuer that sends air pressure to brakes. you depending on electric connection for brakes. i dont know maybe im old school but i dont trust it. all starting to get way over my head. then we started talking about a toyota pyrus? and even on a gasoline engine which we normally opens closes butterflys to control air and a tps is piggybacked onto that to control fuel now it is all going to be computre. a stepper motor controls your butter fly valve. there is supposely no limp home mode or anything to get home where you stop is where you end up if that stepper motor goes out. also they were talkigna bout that particular car for brakes is going to again be a potentiameter(sp) and a pump will create your fluid pressure for your hydraulic brakes instead of your foot. idea is with the new computers you can create alot of pressure release it quickly and create alot of pressure quickly again and you can create more pressure w/the motor vs your foot. i dont seem to trust all this new fangled stuff. the eaton guy's exact words were we are trying to idiot proof items because the next generation is a dumber breed of itiots. its time for me to retire. this old dog cant learn that many new tricks.

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MN Bob

10-06-2005 08:11:58

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

Nostalga!! I still have that bent Dodge wrench if anyone needs one! My first was a 38 ford coupe, blew the 65 HP and put in an 80 the first year, My brother and I lifted the old out with a chain and 2X4. Put the new one in same way. Sure miss that old ford, got stolen on me. Those were the days. Now I cant lift 100# of corn. Still make hay though, day (& hehe night).

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Nolan

10-05-2005 09:54:23

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

Being rather fundamentally opposed to change, I do understand your codgering. But, it does seem these systems do work well.

I remember when electronic ignitions came out. I was one of those decrying them because I couldn't band-aid them and limp home like I could with a points type ignition. But, they didn't break. I didn't need to limp home, like I did routinely with my points ignition. I simply drove. They worked.

Same that e-lec-tronic fuel injection. New fangled, complicated, unreliable, etc. Laments for carburetors abounded, from my lips as well. While I've still many a sick carburetor that doesn't work well, darned if my fuel injected cars don't run superbly every day.

Fly by wire in fancy airplanes has been around for decades, and working well. Boeing and Lockheed and others wouldn't use them on those expensive planes and rockets if it didn't. Fact is, the systems just plain work, and work well.

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onefarmer

10-05-2005 04:48:19

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$2000 damage because of electronics in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

98 GMC Jimmy. Last fall I was coming home on my dirt road, traveling about 30mph, when a deer jumped out. I jambed the brakes and it was as tho I didn't have any. I hit the deer and broke the grill, headlight, bent the hood. $2000.

Later it had snowed and I was approching a red light I applied the brakes in plenty of time and ROLLED right thru the intersection. Good thing ther were no other cars. That is when I unhooked the ABS! No more problems.

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Mike M

10-05-2005 05:36:16

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Re: $2000 damage because of electronics in reply to onefarmer, 10-05-2005 04:48:19

I'm with you on those ABS brakes the few I have ran I didn't like and the one I own I unhooked. Sure is a pain when you can't get stopped on dry pavement.

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onefarmer

10-05-2005 17:44:41

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Re: $2000 damage because of electronics in reply to Mike M, 10-05-2005 05:36:16

Pain? Expensive!! I thought they were suppose to shorten the stopping distance not lengthen it. I wouldn't have hit that deer if I had the ABS unhooked.

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NC Wayne

10-04-2005 20:48:47

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

My auto mechanics teacher in HS used to work in Detroit at one of the car Mfgs. He started with an office at the back of the building and within a very short time it got moved to the front. Seems he cussed every engineer he passed every morning on the way back to his office and they didn't like it much. His favorite saying was "Engineers alway work in pairs. One comes with some dumb a-- idea and the other either puts it where you can't work on it or makes it so you can't work on it". True technology has come a long way but give me the old stuff anyday. They still hype cars getting 20+ MPG---well my 55 Chevy with a 283, power pack heads, a nice cam, a 450 spread bore Holley, backed with a 4 speed Saginaw never got less than 20 MPG unless I was playing around and keeping those mechanical secondaries wide open. The best thing was if it didn't sound just right I could pull into any parking lot and run the valves, etc in just a few minutes (yeah I was running solid lifters). As far as equipment goes I've got a customer right now that bought a brand new 345 CAT excavator a few months back. It's been down with problems in the electronics more than it's been up digging. To think he traded in a perfectly good old 3345 CAT that, with the engine we had just built for it, was running great except for an occasional line bursting from old age.I doubt the new one will ever get old enough for that to happen.... ..... .As for old -vs-new on emissions I've got a 78 Jeep J-10 that, based on what the sniffer told him, the guy doing the inspection said runs cleaner than a new car..... The bad thing is as long as people keep buying into the new technology their gonna keep "making things better" til he-- freezes over or the life expectancy of new items gets so short people stop buying. Problem there again is the life span of new stuff has gotten progressivly shorter and shorter over such a long period of time that many people don't realize how bad things have gotten. On that note for those of you that say I'm wrong think about this. Sure they say that new motor will last 100,000+ miles before it neds rebuilt. Problem is the plastic car it's in won't last that long. Look at the shape most cars from the '80's are in and their only 25 years old. Then take a look at the metal cars from the 30's on to the 70's and how many of them are still on the road. When that new cars engine needs rebuilt figure several thousand dollars, and then set it back into a pile of plastic junk. Now when the old engine needs rebuilt think several hundred, and you still have a good all metal car to put it back into....now you tell me which is best..... ..

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RJ-AZ

10-04-2005 20:27:41

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

We are having some problems with several new Mack trucks with Allison automatics. It seems that the engine computer and transmission computer can"t agree as to power setting and gear selection in higher altitudes. So many of these new cars and trucks are going to an electronic throttle now. And supposedly 42V electrical systems are coming soon in order to power up electronic valving(N0 CAM) as well as electricallly assisted power steering.

42V is rhree 12V batterys in series 3X14=42.

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Leland

10-05-2005 21:20:18

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to RJ-AZ, 10-04-2005 20:27:41

RJ I have read plenty of your other posts on red power but how in the he!! do you take 3x12 and get 42 where I went to school they told us that was 36 ???

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jfp

10-04-2005 19:37:26

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

I hear all of you and agree with Rusty on this. The vehicles in Europe are not as big as US builts. How can one computer say another one is lying? You really don't know. Talk about gas mileage; 350 chevy has been getting the same since 1960. My first car was a 63 chevy Nova 2 convertiable 2 spd auto 6 banger and would burn the tires off the rim to my and everyone's surprise. Computers are here to stay, its the quality of them that make them depedable. Problem is, some CEO's cousin needed a job in the design dept. and don't know $&*# about what he's doing, so we end up with junk computers that never work right.

I wouldn't retire if I was you but its your choice. Maybe a different job or bussiness if you are that unhappy.

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thejdman01

10-05-2005 04:46:23

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to jfp , 10-04-2005 19:37:26

im NOT unhappy with my job its jsut i dont understand all this new stuff, and all of computers. theres jsut so much new stuff that i would either have to seriulsy go back to school for all of this or get out of the business as electronics are here to stay. and i just dont know about going back to school. the other problem is not only engineers but penny pinchen people. ill spend 500 bucks to get a quality car. these new manufactures skimp on a washer if they can get away with it to save a 1 penny over a million cars. thats another problem i see latley and people dont worry about quality or know about it

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Tony in Bama

10-04-2005 19:34:01

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

Don"t they know that when you idiot-proof something, someone defeats the plan by coming up with a better idiot??

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erdchainsaw

10-04-2005 19:41:34

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better idiot in reply to Tony in Bama, 10-04-2005 19:34:01

well I can answer this since I went to school with these idiots.. (ya you engineers--I is onetoo)

they personally can not believe anyone is not smart enought to understand what they are talking about and can make everything they do work.....

Iguess thats a good thing.. they think everyone is as smart as they are.. as opposed to lawyers who keep telling eveyone that we cant think for ourselfs at all LOL
or Proffessors that think no one is as smart as they are LOL
Or Politicians that think no one can live with out them..(hey you know Im beggining to believe that one) LOL

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Gene Davis (Ga.).

10-04-2005 18:38:17

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

The E.P. A. gods will have all of you for thinking like this!!

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Mark - IN.

10-04-2005 17:27:07

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

Sometimes I feel like you anymore. The big push in my field of telecommunications is VOIP (voice over internet protocol). Everyone is selling it, someone's installing it, and I'm one of the guys that gets sent to fix it, never finding records of anything - no IP addresses for servers, routers, gateways, subnet masks, nothing. And when walk in to see a customer for the first time after was installed 6 months earlier and never worked right from day one, customer is usually pretty unhappy. Nothing like looking like you have two left feet to dance with. Is embarrassing, but these days there doesn't seem to be any shame or embarrassment, just nice looking pie charts for the share holders.

Worst of all, are subbing out the Central Office tech support to India, for instance. That may not mean anything to most, but the CO is the heart of telecom. And when you call tech support, you get someone whom you can't understand, and doesn't care that you can't understand them. That's real bad. Ask those guys a question, they always say in broken English "Pleased to be thanking you for being put on hold", put you on hold, call all the way back to the same place that you were trying to get in the first place and always used to get, get an answer from someone that you can understand but they can't, and then come back and try to give it to you in a language you can't understand. Then you ask them "Well, if I do that, won't it cause this...", to which they say "Ahh yes, yes, yes, pleased to be thinking that is a good point, so pleased to be thanking you for being put on hold again", then does it all over again. About 5,000 times again, in one call.

Not like the old days when stuff didn't break nearly as much, and when it did, you didn't toss it in the trash, you fixed it. Now they just ship it to the customer to change, and when he/she doesn't get it right, you get sent to have your head handed to you on a silver platter by a customer that you've never met or seen in your life.

Mark

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Richard G.

10-04-2005 16:41:31

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

If the terrorists ever drop a dirty bomb that is radioactive, the only things running will be our old trucks with points, our old tractors,and my 1917 Model T.

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Waljohn

10-04-2005 16:07:40

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

For the sake of everyone who owns and operates older vehicles and equipment, I hope you veteran wrenchers keep your tools and your phone numbers in the books. With all of the computerization of vehicles, I"m afraid the new breed of mechanics won"t be able to diagnose anything. They will simply hook up the diagnosis machine, go down the list of possible problems, and keep changing parts until they find what works. We"ll be paying for all of those parts they used before they fixed it.

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Mark - IN.

10-04-2005 17:45:16

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to Waljohn, 10-04-2005 16:07:40

That goes for manuals too. Once had to change out an old rectifier (made from the 70's through the 80's and still widely used), and needed to balance the bank of rectifiers to compensate. No manuals, they were gone. They were like gold. Had gone through several soft and hardware upgrades, but power equipment stayed the same, so generations of manuals were kept for that reason - GOLD. Went to the boss whom has never done the job, and has no clue what it takes to do the job and asked, "Can only find CD Rom which doesn't show 30 year old power equipment, need either the black or silver manuals, where are they?", and he says "They were taking up space so threw them away". DOH!!! Have since scrounged and hid some.

Mark

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doogdoog

10-04-2005 17:30:54

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to Waljohn, 10-04-2005 16:07:40

Aloha, The problem with all this electronic stuff is when it gives problems. Only the dealers will have the special diagnostic equipment which all the other mechanics will not be able to afford. Oh, just bring back those early 60's Chevy II with the six. They just go on and on and on----- ----- ----- -.

Mahalo,
doogdoog

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txgrn

10-04-2005 16:43:51

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to Waljohn, 10-04-2005 16:07:40

Back in the '80's I took my Buick into the local dealer for intermittent ignition operation. He did just that and didn't mind telling you...."we swap parts till we hit the problem".

As it turned out he didn't fix it and I had to. The problem was the ignition switching transistor had lost it's thermal grease and in go home traffic in the summer with the ac on my wife would have it die on her....she'd call me and had to wait till I got off work and went to her rescue.

By then the car had cooled and the traffic was not stop and go. I'd jump in, crank it up and drive home....no problem. Took awhile to figure it out but a squirt of thermal grease was all it took.

Mark

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37 chief

10-04-2005 15:36:54

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

I am with you on this one. This electronic stuff is great when it works, but one little glitch and everything shuts down. It's time for me to retire also, and I think I will. Stan

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Butch(OH)

10-04-2005 14:55:24

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

Cripes JD sounds like you stole one of my rants, lol. Could not agree more, cars for kids who grew up playing vidio games, not for the old cresent whrench crowd for sure.

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txgrn

10-04-2005 14:38:51

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

Lotta truth in what you say. I realized that and my physical capabilities weren't what they used to be.

Found a hole and dove through it.

Would I do it again....yepper.

Mark

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thejdman01

10-04-2005 17:17:10

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to txgrn, 10-04-2005 14:38:51

physical abilities havent been there for a long time. i cant lay with my feet up on the seat with my head up under the dash anymore for 6 hours to trace down these electrical problems anymore and sometimes thats what it takes so i guess it is time to quit. problem is no money to retire.

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txgrn

10-06-2005 02:32:53

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 17:17:10

You hit the sore spot. I have lost my ability to work on cars for that reason and poor eyesight. Things are either too close or too far away...then the glasses are constantly slipping down your "sweaty" nose, etc. Then there is the lower back disc slippage from leaning over the front or side of the vehicle like when changing plugs.

Mark

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RustyFarmall

10-04-2005 13:48:46

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to thejdman01, 10-04-2005 13:35:22

All of that electronic wizardry will do nothing more than add big dollars to the price of a car or truck. We will be no better off for it, and the engines still will not be as fuel efficient as they could be. We are not progressing in automotive technology, we are going backwards. Lets just go back a few years more, and cars will be simple again, and will still be as fuel efficient as they are now. None of that high tech stuff has me fooled. I want my 1960 Chevy back.

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txgrn

10-04-2005 16:47:42

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to RustyFarmall, 10-04-2005 13:48:46

Come on Rusty. Go to the www and checkout the Dodge Truckb 4.7L V8. You would be amazed at what new things they have done to the replacement for the old '40's designed 318 and on my first tank of gas starting at 6 miles on the odometer, I got 16.4 and the second 17.1 mpg with some dazzling performance to boot. I'll take the new. On the 3rd tank now.

Mark

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DRL

10-04-2005 16:17:19

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to RustyFarmall, 10-04-2005 13:48:46

Not old enough to retire, or even begin thinking about it, but there are times that I long for my first car. 62 Chevy Bel-Air, 283, 2 speed power glide tranny. Manual steering, brakes, and everything else. Points and condenser under the distributor cap. You could actually see the engine and access any part of it without any trouble. Timing light, dwell meter, a few wrenches and screwdrivers were all you needed to tune her up. Two barrel carb was a snap to rebuild. Not so on today's cars and trucks. I suppose there has been a lot of progress since that time, but those old cars were a whole lot easier to work on.

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Bill WI

10-04-2005 19:24:47

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to DRL, 10-04-2005 16:17:19

Was it rue Chevy had a van that you had to raise the motor abit to change the oil filter? We win some , lose some.

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thejdman01

10-05-2005 04:55:14

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to Bill WI , 10-04-2005 19:24:47

like the buick lesabre that you had to pull one of hte mtoor omounts with a cherry picker to change the serpentine belt which meant a tow and 2 hours labor to change a 30 dollar belt. what about the dodge van you had to loosen motor mounts tip motor to change spark plugs. 700 dollars labor to change spark plugs because they couldnt make a van 4 inches longer.

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DRL

10-04-2005 19:43:31

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to Bill WI , 10-04-2005 19:24:47

Not sure about the van, but had a Monza 2+2 with a 262 V8 shoehorned in the engine compartment. Had to take the motor mounts loose and carefully raise the engine to change spark plugs. Put two raidators in it because the motor mounts would give too much when "rapidly accelerating", putting the fan into the rad. Rear tires seemed to wear out pretty fast, too. Hmmmm.

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thejdman01

10-04-2005 17:24:14

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to DRL, 10-04-2005 16:17:19

points condensor god the good memories. you were going home that night in your car. jimmy rig a pop can aluminum whatever. remember the good old days when you could sit in your engine compartment. really bothers me like on these new semis etc construction equipment the semis gonna be 70 ft long give me 2 feet more in the engine compartment and give me some room to work. i hear on these new 36v chevy pickups hybrid cars the starter/alternator is right on the flywheel driven off the flywheel (not sure havent seen one only from talking today) and to pull the starter/altenator you have to either pull the motor or the transmission. what is the world coming to. they said expect to pay 600-900 bucks for a start now. this is progress? they said this new stuff electric power steering pumps water pumps because they now have all this electric gone are the days of 30 dollar chevy 350 water pumps. progress??

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txgrn

10-04-2005 16:51:09

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to DRL, 10-04-2005 16:17:19

I hated that !@#$% dist at the rear of the engine. Thank goodness they developed those external setable ignition points..... ...and then there was that 9/16 head bolt that was directly behind the dist and you had to have a special offset wrench to loosen it and set your timing....yuck.

Mark

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DRL

10-04-2005 19:12:33

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to txgrn, 10-04-2005 16:51:09

Access to the dist at the rear of the engine was a PIA, but also drove a Ford truck that was made in the same era. Every time you hit a mud puddle, you stalled out because of the dist sitting right up front. Carried a can of WD40 exclusively for that reason. Oh for the good ole days!!

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txgrn

10-06-2005 02:37:24

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to DRL, 10-04-2005 19:12:33

Well sir, you haven't lived till you drove a flathead 6 cylinder before they put plastic boots on plug wires. The head was dimpled where the plug installed making a nice puddle of water and since the plug wire cap was naked, I don't need to tell you what came next.....oh and that was before the advent of the engine well splash shields so every time you hit a good sized puddle of water you got the sputter sputter treatment. The old days suck..... ..... ..... ...

Mark

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GeorgeH

10-04-2005 16:58:57

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to txgrn, 10-04-2005 16:51:09

Still have that special wrench..... ..... ..Anybody need one?

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txgrn

10-06-2005 02:34:10

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to GeorgeH, 10-04-2005 16:58:57

Still have mine after 40 years. Grin

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Mike M

10-04-2005 16:34:14

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to DRL, 10-04-2005 16:17:19

I kinda liked those old 2 sp power glides. These new 4sp overdrive ones are always shifting around. I think if someone would actually build a back to basics car or truck they would sell like hot cakes.

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DRL

10-04-2005 19:18:11

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Re: time for this old guy to retire/new electronic in reply to Mike M, 10-04-2005 16:34:14

Those old power glides weren't much for off the line in a race, but they sure got you down the road once up to speed. Seemed to last forever. Can still hear that whine they made. Nothing fancy, easy to fix, and got the job done. What a concept.

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