crops that drain the soil?

Soil organic matter - non-living components which are a heterogeneous mixture composed largely of products resulting from microbal and chemical transformations of organic debris. Soil organic matter can exist in different morphological patterns, which are the bases of the classification of so called forms and types of humus

My point is when I watch the Troybilt tiller commercials, they misdirect the public into think that by rototilling plant debris into the soil that they are building soil O.M. when in fact they are destroying O.M.. By rototilling the net result is a reduction of soil O.M.

We are talking a difference of symantics here.

Now a days they say plowing decreases soil structure, as you say.

How does the carbon of that sweet clover get _in_ the soil, if it is not turned under? As well, you lose the green manure - N - portion if the plant if you don't turn it under.

I've never quite followed that.

Same with cornstalks, just to a lesser degree.

How does the carbon get intot he ground, if you don't put it in? :)

--->Paul

Soil science is very complicated, but suffice to say that meaningful increases of soil O.M. are difficult to obtain in the short term, and are relatively small in the long term, mostly in the 1% to 2% range over a decade or more.

Where I live, used to be part of the glacial lakes of Minnesota. Out 'real' top soil is a very thin layer 120 feet down. Well man said he would hit it, & he did. Pulled up a few sticks and some prairie grass from down there. It all turned to dust by the next day, when it hit O2. Anyhow, that 120 feet is mixed up yellow clay with Canada's former topsoil, and deposits from the glacial lakes. So, we have some OM even deep in our sub-soils. A little different around here.

--->Paul

Around here we call what you are worried about "Mining" the land. I agree with looking at a recent soil test, but one you did as it would be a good learning process for you.

EAAACC is a really healthy rotation, E=Establish Alfalfa, A= Alfalfa and C = Corn. Long story short, I would be surprised if you got a miner but it is a good thing that you want to protect you land.

Corn depletes N from the soil, and as silage it removes organic matter.

Liquid manure adds N and a lot pf P.

If your land is short on rainfall & is sandy, I would watch the organic matter, as the surface is getting cleaned off over & over. On more normal soils, should not be a problem as the alfalfa roots help to keep it up.

The N from the Alfalfa will last 2 years to help the corn.

The manure will replace the P, and also help with N for the corn.

So, all in all, you are getting one of the best rotations around, unless it is depleting your organic matter. I'm sure he is balancing the N,P, & K with commercial fertilizer to keep things up & in balance.

An additional step a few have started around here is to plant rye after corn silage, harvest it for haylage in spring, plant corn for silage again, & then go into alfalfa.

This gives 3-4 years of alfalfa.
Corn for silage.
Rye for silage basically over winter (fall & spring).
Corn for silage.
Back to alfalfa.

This works well if you have too much manure. The rye will use up extra nutrients, and you get an extra crop out of the 5-6 year rotation. As well the rye helps control erosion by being in place over winter. Folks that get set up with it, are short on land, and can manage the nutrient issues with good soil testing program can do real well with this.

--->Paul

It has long been held, from university research & so, that 1/3 of cornstalks, possibly 50%, can be removed without reducing om.

Corn is supposed to yield 200 bu an acre here, I've actually gotten 183 some years on a whole field basis, so grain corn pushes ground pretty hard. The problem with rotting corn stalks is that they _use_ so much n to break down on the soil, even if you raise the om of the soil, they are sucking up so much N, you need to add an extra 50 units of N to keep it going. You raise om at the price of extra N needed. Lots.

As you say, that can, over time, raise om, but soil fertility suffers, or lots of commercial fertilizer has to be added and a lot of insecticide.

I do a lot of corn/ beans, with oats and a wee bit of alfalfa thrown in to break up the weed/ insect cycles.

I'd be real happy with a corn & alfalfa rotation, better than a corn/ bean rotation. I'm just not a fan of continuios corn at all, no matter what Richard the corn yield champion could do on his fields. ;)

To me it sounds like things are being managed very well, far better than a typical continuios corn on corn rotation around here. and better than a typical corn/ soybean rotation as well It depends on what type of soil he is starting out with to begin with, if it can take removing all crop material all the time. Neighbor of mine is running 120 acres that way - he's the one that is using rye too - but he returns all the manure to that 120 acres too.

Alfalfa roots go very deep if allowed to grow 4 years or so, brings up nutrients from deep down, and the thick roots of an old stand help break up hardpan, allow paths for moisture & such.

Didn't really see where you disagreed with me, I enjoy this topic & like to discuss it, happy to see what folks have to say, I can sure learn a lot. I don't know much myself, just trying to keep the discussion going. :)

--->Paul

He is using the very best of rotation if he is in a 3 to 5 year cycle and supplementing with organic and commercial fertilizer also. Sounds to me like he knows what he is doing.

Sugar beets are the stinker; they totally "drain" the soil, like you say.

Allan