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OT Pouring Concrete

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Vt. Sid

12-12-2005 08:22:16




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I have a small (16*24) slab to pour for the bottom of a storage shed I'm trying to finish up. Wasn't able to get the cement poured before this cold spell. There is about a foot of gravel in the bottom. Just got the final grade on it maybe 1 wk ago. Might be 3-4 inches of frost in the ground IF the weather breaks soon! Any thoughts on pouring this with that amount of frost? It's fairly well drained. Would be about a 4 inch slab tapering to 16 inches around the poles. Thanks! Sid

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gary case

12-13-2005 07:21:25




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 08:22:16  
i agree with old. being in the bus for 34 yrs it would be best to wait until late spring. or just get a salamander and keep it warm for a few days. visquene the area if possible. if it freezes before setting up it'll flke all to he... nobody mentioned cutting after it's set. very important or use the old expansion strips. wait till spring if it's like mi. about the colledge guys with there specs wow that was awesome with all those #. gave me blurry vision. (just kidding) in mi, we guar. are concrete to turn white and crack. six inch pad would be better with wire. gary

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Matt Saurine

02-14-2008 16:55:53




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Billy NY, 12-12-2005 19:02:58  
Hey Billy,

Thanks for the info...

Just your average impatient homeowner here...

I was curious to your opinion on a matter involving a recently poured concrete slab...

We had an 8'x8' slab poured on Monday around noon. Sunday evening the contractor stopped by to lay an insulated(not electric) blanket over the area which I had just cleared. The only thing I know about the mix was that Calcium was added and they used a 'six-bag' rather then 'four-bag' mix. It definately didn't appear to be real runny. I also noticed they did place rebar along the bottom. They formed with standard 2x4's and the drop was no more then 3".
They came back that evening around 5pm and put the blanket back on. It remained there until I removed it on Thursday at around 8am.I pushed the little bit of water that was on top(I think it was more likely from precipitation and not so much from the concrete, but I really don't know)off the sides to allow for a little bit of air dry prior to deliver of new spa. I added water to the spa at 5pm. It is currently heating up.
The temperature here in SW Ohio has been lows in the teens and highs 21-37 F.
The forms are still around the slab, not sure if this is good, bad indifferent. I know I am taking a chance of damaging not only the integrity of the slab but also the structure of the spa if the slab were to give.
What would be your overall feeling about my position? Do you think it will probably be fine, or do you think I'm screwed?

Thank you for your time,

Matt Saurine

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Galen

12-12-2005 17:12:06




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 08:22:16  
So - like I said IF you use Calcium and IF you insulate and IF the temp is right, and IF you work it fast enough, you will get 75% strength in the first 24 hours and be ok.



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sjh

12-12-2005 14:25:20




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 08:22:16  
The concrete used in this slab will have around 25% 28 day strength @ 24 hrs.
It should type I or II in the mix. If it was type III it would gain 75% @ 24 hrs.
I to work in the concrete field. I have seen many pieces break when type I was used, and production took the piece out of the form to early. Theres 3 ways to make that concrete cure faster: 1 steam, 2 heat, 3 calcium cloride.



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Vt. Sid

12-12-2005 09:18:43




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 08:22:16  
Big JT-Thanks for the reply. IF I decide to go ahead and pour, can I insulate the slab with some loose hay, sawdust, etc., to help keep it from freezing or am I better off to wait until spring? Sid



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big jt

12-13-2005 07:20:28




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 09:18:43  
I am no claiming to be any great expert. I think Billy maybe seems to hae a good idea on the subject.

All I know is what I saw in college. What we did was pour a bunch of 2" cores and 1/3 of them went in the freezer, 1/3 went under water, 1/3 were stored at room temp. All this was AFTER the initial 24 hour setting period.

We tested them every week for a month and charted the results. It was real clear as time went on that the under water was the strongest, room temp second and frozen a definate third.

If it was me I would wait till spring. The winter without or the time spent empting in the spring will pale in comparison to the years of dealing with a broken up floor.

JM2CW

jt

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Galen

12-12-2005 10:36:31




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 09:18:43  
The first 24 hours is critical. IF you can insulate, and IF you can add Calcium Chloride, and IF you can place it fast enough, and IF you can place it early enough in the day, and IF the temp does not go below freezing for the first 24 hours..... you should be ok. Concrete will atain 75% of strength in the first 24 hours and max strength in 30 days. The hay will work (burlap or plastic tarp over it first). I'd wait until Spring, but if you get 3-4 days in the 40'2 and it doesn't drop below freezing it should work, dependingonwhere you live and your soil. The stone under the concrete is a must.

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Paul Shuler

12-12-2005 15:49:57




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Galen, 12-12-2005 10:36:31  
Can I tag onto Sid's question? Is heat as bad as the cold. I had to pour my basement floor when it was 103 in July with no shade. I misted it with a light fog of water from a 500 gal power sprayer till dark. Was that dumb? Just a lot I don't know about concrete and sounds like you do.



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RAB

12-12-2005 12:50:45




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Galen, 12-12-2005 10:36:31  
Make that 25% strength in 24 hours at around 20 degrees Celsius. Concrete will gain probably 75-85% strength at 28 days but may well go on curing for years, depending on moisture, among others.
Durability is the main requirement here, so more cementitious material is required for that, than the compressive strength you require. Once you achieve about 5 Newtons per square millimetre, the concrete will resist mild frost attack, so if you lay it with warm aggregate, water and cement, lay a thick section with it sheeted and insulated (straw), on a non frosted base, you should be alright. Once it starts setting the reaction is exothermic, so it will warm itself more.
Regards, RAB

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Galen

12-12-2005 13:56:56




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to RAB, 12-12-2005 12:50:45  
Sorry - 75%. Spent several years testing concrete, cement and pre-stressed beams.



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RAB

12-12-2005 14:44:10




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Galen, 12-12-2005 13:56:56  
Sorry 25%.
Spent half a lifetime making and testing (as concrete cubes mainly) and analysing cement in cement industry.
10 Newtons at 24 hours
20 Newtons at 3 days
30 Newtons at 7 days
40 newtons at 28 days
Or thereabouts - +- about 5 Newtons at 28 days.
For the standard BS testing mix - A floor will possibly only need about 20 Newton concrete dependent on loadings and cross section.

Rapid hardening cement will have higher initial strengths, but the ultimate strength will probably be less than Ordinary Portland Cement

NO steam curing here for 7 day strength at 24 hours! - just standard curing at 20 degrees Celsius, moulds covered with plastic sheet for 24 hours then cubes under water.
STEAM curing and accelerators will make a lot of difference. Beams etc need to be de-moulded for a fast turn around of the mould. Floor pads don"t and there is no steam curing here! And concrete won"t even set below about 5 degrees Celsius without accelerators to get it started.
We supplied about 4000 tonnes of Cement to concrete manufacturers each day of the week, every week. that was Ordinary Portland, Rapid Hardening Portland, Sulphate Resisting Portland, White, High alumina, and cement blends with fly ash, blast furnace slag, etc.
RAB

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Galen

12-12-2005 15:16:17




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to RAB, 12-12-2005 14:44:10  
Whatever you think! If it makes you feel better.



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MonT

12-26-2005 10:03:43




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Galen, 12-12-2005 15:16:17  
Kinda depends how ya'll was doin the testin.
if you put it in a hole and you think it got hard enough, is that a TEST? Or is it like the guy that has an answer for everything. Is he a "know it all" that thinks he knows it all, or does he "think" he's a know it all that knows it all? One thing that you can be sure of though is that we'll know what he thinks he knows!!!



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Author

12-26-2005 10:09:44




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to MonT, 12-26-2005 10:03:43  
Sounds like RAB "knows" his stuff.Sorry Galen



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Isaac Newton

12-12-2005 15:14:45




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to RAB, 12-12-2005 14:44:10  
There you guys go again. I spend my whole life working with falling apples, a big lump on top of my head, and other ailments of a scientist and then you guys go and name some idiodic unit of measurement after me that has to do with cement that is likely going to be used as an oil-drop pad for some old Farmall. Man, if only things could stay the same.



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old

12-12-2005 10:35:55




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 09:18:43  
You would be better off to wait till spring, but if you still want or need to pour it then make sure you have them put antifreeze in the mix for you.



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big jt

12-12-2005 08:42:53




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to Vt. Sid, 12-12-2005 08:22:16  
If the area will freeze again within a month DON'T DO IT. Concrete does 95% of it's curing within the first month. Just because it is hard doesn't mean it is cured.

Allowing concrete to freeze within the first month will cut the strength about in half. I have seen the tests done before my own eyes.

jt



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Ken Macfarlane

12-13-2005 05:53:21




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 Re: OT Pouring Concrete in reply to big jt, 12-12-2005 08:42:53  
Just a note, some guys up here will run a heater with hoses connected laying under tarps to thaw the subgrade then pour and move the hoses to above the slab and relay the tarps. They do this for at least a week or so after too.

A little wood boiler from a greenhouse would be ideal, break up some old pallets to burn in or whatever.



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