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john deere

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mno

01-09-2006 18:38:22




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if someone would please try to answer this.I am new at tractors i have a ford.but my question is i was at a local tractor pull and seen some john deeres i think mid 50 model and i heard someone call the engines hit and miss,i am sure you know what i"m talking about.how is these diferance from a regular engine,do they fire every 4 turns?what"s the reason? also i like to get one are they only in john deere? what"s the best year and model to look for. thanks

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G/MAN

01-10-2006 15:26:14




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 18:38:22  
You heard them referred to as "hit and miss" because the person doing the referring to either doesn't know what he's talking about, or was making a smart remark. John Deere two-cylinder tractor engines have always been throttle-governed, never hit-and-miss engines at all. "Hit-and-miss" refers to any of the old single-cylinder gas engines that weren't throttle governed at one speed, and would speed up and slow down as they operated. Once the speed dropped sufficiently, the engine would "hit" once or twice to bring the speed back up, then the engine would coast and "miss" for a few revolutions until the speed dropped off again.

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730 virgil

01-10-2006 10:01:08




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 18:38:22  
where can i find out hp of my 730 diesel ?
i can't find any of my owners manuals since we moved out here



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mno

01-09-2006 20:24:30




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 18:38:22  
ok Bill I guess the 2 cyl. engines is what i"m talking about, are they in the 50,60,and 70 model or others? if so is one better than another, i"m guessing the 70 is latter, maybe more power?



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Bill(Wis)

01-09-2006 21:04:20




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 20:24:30  
John Deere built 2 cylinder engines for their tractors from the time they purchased the Waterloo Boy Tractor works in 1914 (?) through 1959. They started designating their tractors with a letter system in the 1920's. The letter sytem was used through 1952-53 when they began using a number system. The 50 replaced the B. The 60 replaced the A. The 70 replaced the G, etc. Later, they added another digit to the numbering scheme. The 520 replaced the 50, etc. There is a tremendous amount of info to be found on the net on all of this.

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Bob

01-09-2006 20:27:25




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 20:24:30  
The 50's, 60's, and 70's are of the same era. Each tractor, in progressive numbering, is simply larger.



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Bill(Wis)

01-09-2006 20:06:04




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 18:38:22  
Bob's description of a true "hit and miss" engine is correct. Maytag washing machine engines were true hit and miss engines. John Deere 2 cyl engines sound the way they do because of the firing sequence. One cyl fires while the other is on it's compression stroke and then it fires 180 degrees behind the first one. Then you have to listen to the whole thing go thru it's blow, suck and squeeze before it can go bang again. Or, bang, bang, and then blow, blow, suck, suck, squeeze, squeeze, bang, bang, etc.

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RustyFarmall

01-09-2006 20:18:47




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 Re: john deere in reply to Bill(Wis), 01-09-2006 20:06:04  
Exactly, if you go to Roberts carburetor repair website, he has a very good animated graphic of just how it happens. Quite fascinating.



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old

01-09-2006 19:37:43




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 18:38:22  
I have to disagree with Bob, the old JDs like the early As and B and probably some others where hit and miss engine, that how they got the name popping johnnys. Then when they came out with like the 50 and 60s they did some carb improvements and took the hit and miss out for the most part. If you ever listen to say a 1935 JD-B at a low idle you will here it miss a couple times then go pop pop as it hits again and then miss again and so on. I know it sure stands out when I fire up my 1935 JD-B nothing else on the place sounds like it.

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G/MAN

01-10-2006 15:33:13




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 Re: john deere in reply to old, 01-09-2006 19:37:43  
As the others have said, you're incorrect. Your "B" is throttle-governed, meaning that each cylinder will fire once during each 720-degrees of crankshaft rotation, just like any other 4-stroke engine, be it a four-cylinder, six-cylinder, V-8, etc. The "hit-and-miss" sound comes from the firing order of the engine, which has cylinder #1 firing, followed by cylinder #2 180 crankshaft degrees later, which is followed by 540 degrees of "coasting", during which cylinder #2 completes its power-stroke, exhaust stroke, and #1 completes its exhaust stroke and intake stroke. And of course single-barrel-carbureted two-bangers often tend to miss on the #2 cylinder at low idle speeds because for the same reason - cylinder #1 gets the bulk of the fuel-air charge, and #2 can get starved enough for fuel and air that it fires very softly or not at all. This situation goes away as engine speed increases and the carburetor comes out of the idle circuit, which gives the two cylinders much more equal fuel-air charges. So no, your "B" is not a "hit-and-miss" engine, and neither is any other two-cylinder Deere engine, regardless of vintate or how it runs and sounds.

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Coloken

01-09-2006 20:27:54




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 Re: john deere in reply to old, 01-09-2006 19:37:43  
Old, I got to respectfully disagree. To me it is not a true hit and miss unless the governer causes it to miss by holding open a valve or disconnecting the ignition. If it has a buterfly throtle, it hits a good one, then kind of coasts along until the throtle open a bit and hits again. Got to grant you that it sounds like a true "hit and miss" though. If you tell me that common usage has decided that this is "hit and miss" then I will reluctatly back off.

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old

01-09-2006 20:56:30




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 Re: john deere in reply to Coloken, 01-09-2006 20:27:54  
Guess it would depend on who you talk to etc. I have always been told they where and that came from a lot of very old people that have long since died. Even a lot of JD dealers would call them that back in the day



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Bob

01-09-2006 20:25:49




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 Re: john deere in reply to old, 01-09-2006 19:37:43  
Sorry, Old, but YOU are WRONG. By all conventionaly accepted definitions, hit and miss engines are as I described... no throttle butterfly, and either they fire at full power, or "miss", to control speed. NO SUCH MECHANISM on the Johnny Poppers. They are "throttle governed".

Deere "Johnny Poppers" could, however, be described as "odd-fire", as the firing interval between #1 (LH) and #2 (RH) is 180 degrees, then 540 degrees elapses before #1 fires again.

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mno

01-09-2006 21:04:25




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 Re: john deere in reply to Bob, 01-09-2006 20:25:49  
I under stand that Bob, any idea way they done that go 540 degrees with out firing, so I guess the 70 has the most power,when did they stop making the 70?and is that when they stopped making the johnny poppers?



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Specter

01-10-2006 08:03:51




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 21:04:25  
The 70 was a big tractor in its day, but wasn't the peak of two cylinder development. From the letter series (M, B, A, G, R, etc.) Deere went to the number series (40, 50, 60, 70, 80). The 80 was the top horsepower of that line, and was built in about 1955-1956. The 70 was built from 1953-1956. Then Deere moved onto the 20 series (320, 420, 520, 620, 720, 820). These had a power boost and newer systems on them. The final series of two cylinders was the 30 series (330, 430, 530, 630, 730, 830). The 830 was the last and biggest two cylinder built (with the exception of certain industrials), at about 1958-1960, I believe. The 830 was rated at about 75 horsepower.

For spec's on two poppers, try this link.

Two Poppers

Specter
Central Alberta, Canada

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RAB

01-09-2006 22:49:02




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 21:04:25  
That one is simple to answer. The 2 crankpins can only sensibly be adjacent or opposite. Most engines had "360" cranks (adjacent crankpins, and fired at 180 degrees). Deere had, and retained, the "180" crank as it was better balanced for rotating mass (and those pistons were massive!) but they obviously needed to have the different firing interval and so sounded different.
They probably needed a larger flywheel than the alternative, to even out the power delivery, but had a reliability advantage as crank failure was relatively common in those days.
Honda motorcycles (the CB72 and CB77) had 180 cranks. That was in the "60s. They too, were "different sounders" but those engnes would rev to 10 000 and vibration was much improved over the British motorcycles of that era.
Regards, RAB

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old

01-09-2006 21:01:32




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 Re: john deere in reply to Bob, 01-09-2006 20:25:49  
Guess its all on how you look at them. Back years ago my grand father always told me that 1935 JD-B was a hit/miss engine and so did my dad and so did the JD dealers back then. Sort of like the differance in a pond and lake some call a small lake a pond becasue of size but by what Webster says they are lakes. Sort of the same thing here depends on who you ask etc.



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Leroy

01-10-2006 06:01:19




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 Re: john deere in reply to old, 01-09-2006 21:01:32  
This series of posts is the first that I EVER heard then called hit & miss, NOBODY here in the multi state area have ever called them that, The ONLY hit & miss engines are single cylinder stationary engines and I have belonged to 7 different antique machinery clubs and am 62 and around Deere all my life



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Bob

01-09-2006 19:21:53




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 Re: john deere in reply to mno, 01-09-2006 18:38:22  
John Deere tractor engines from the 50's are NOT "hit and miss". If there ever was a Deere "hit and miss", the only tractor that could possibly fit that description would be the prototype "Froelich"', from the 'teens. That term is used to describe older "flywheel" stationary gas engines that do not have a throttle butteryfly in the carburetor.

Instead of the governor being connected to the carburetor, on a "hit and miss" engine, when the engine reaches governed speed, the governor latches the exhaust valve open, and typically also shuts the ignition off, and then the engine coasts until it's speed drops a bit, at which point the governor unlatches the exhaust valve, and restores the ignition.

Rather than call the Deere tractors "hit and miss", call them "Johnny Poppers".

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Coloken

01-09-2006 20:14:10




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 Re: john deere in reply to Bob, 01-09-2006 19:21:53  
Thank you Bob. For some time it has been bugging me to hear engines called "hit and miss". It seems that any old stationary engine gets called that. Hit and miss was like you say, a way to govern the speed cause it did not have a throtle. The johney popper comes from the engine being a 4 stroke that hits uneven --bang, bang,nothing, nothing. Some times, same with single cyl. oil field stationary engines, they hit hard one or two time and then the throtle closes and they kind of coast for severl revalutions. BANG, put, put, put,put, put, put, BANG, etc

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JDknut

01-10-2006 03:31:41




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 Re: john deere in reply to Coloken, 01-09-2006 20:14:10  
Bob is right. The two cylinder John Deeres were not true "hit and miss" engines. They were conventional four stroke engines that got their distinctive sound from the uneven 540 degreee firing intervals. "Hit and miss" was a whole other concept that was used in archaic single cylinder statinary engines. Of course, some Deere detractors like to call them "hit and miss" as a way to slam Deeres, but they are wrong.

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