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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Detroit 92 series running backwards

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NC Wayne

05-24-2006 18:51:35




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Saw the post from yesterday evening about the Detroit running backwards. I thought I'd start a new thread because I could tell from many of the replys that the guys weren't really sure what was going on when one ran backwards. Many of the replys said shut off the air at the intake or the fuel. Typically shutting off the fuel is the best way to stop a Detroit under normal conditions, the emergency air shutdown is good in case the fuel rack sticks, etc and you can't shut the fuel off. When it's running backwards though even shutting off the fuel is effectively worthless. The reason it doesn't get "out of time" is because it's a two stroke with no intake valves. Instead their are ports in the bottom of the liners that serve as the intake and their open at the same time the exhaust valves are for scavaging purposes. In other words it allows the blower to force a charge of air through the cyliner clearing out all the waste gases and leaving behind all fresh new air. So forward or backwards the intake and exhause are always open together, the only difference is the direction the engine turns. If any two stroke Detroit 53,71,or 92, series is running backwards the exhaust side becomes the intake and vice-versa. At the same time the blower is also turning backwards so instead of "blowing" air through the airbox, the liner ports and out the exhaust valves, it's now "sucking" air through the exhaust valves, the liner ports and airbox and exhausting it through intake. Basically the emergency shutdown doesn't do any good because it's designed to stop a flow of air blowing against it to seat it against a gasket, not a flow being sucked through it. As far as shutting off fuel you can do that but when she's running backwards there's enough suction in the air box to suck oil past the oil control rings on the piston, and often the blower seals, at which point and she'll run on engine oil. That's one reason the smoke is so black when they run backwards. That said in this case if their hadn't been a raincap in the way that doidn't really give a positive seal, and the exhaust piping had been "tight" a board, book, etc over the exhaust should have worked. Otherwise the way they shut it down with a CO2 extinguisher was an excellent idea. Just my .02. Hope it stears some of you guys that really weren't sure what needed to be done or why it could run backwards in the right direction in case this ever happens to you.

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CaptRon

05-25-2006 13:00:31




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
The fire dept that I worked for as a mechanic had a 6-71 powered pumper that got run backwards a few times. It never ran away that I know of and when I did an inframe I detected no damage from this. The way it happened was when it was being backed into the bay after a run and the driver would have his foot on the brake treadle instead of the throttle. Letting out the clutch while thinking that they were adding throttle till the engine would stop and the frame and driveline would spin the engine backwards. I'd get a call in the middle of the night and sit in bed and explain it to them why smoke poured out the air cleaner. I'd have them crank it up again and see if it built oil pressure and sounded ok. They did say once that to stop it they dumped the clutch and the truck shot forward with the transmission in reverse...imagine that!!!

You aint lived until you're sitting on top of an 8v53 in a boat and the govenor locks up and the engine runs away. We suspected that the govenor was worn out and the engine rolled badly at idle. I had a mechanic apprentice watching the tach and I turned the buffer screw a 1/4 turn when it took off like a banshee. I reached under my leg and tripped the air shut down. The whole thing took less than 10 seconds. Then I realized that the engine wasn't the only thing that took off. When I looked up the apprentice was gone, in fact he was at least 100 yards away up the hill. He said that he took off when the tach needle hit the back of the peg. I still haven't figured out how he got off that boat so fast.

I yanked the govenor off and found that it was just totally worn out. Another govenor fixed the problem and the engine ran great.

BTW, don't use a dry chemical fire extiguisher either.

I had to CO2 a cat 3208 that was in an accident. It was in a garbage truck that rear ended another truck and trapped the driver by the legs in the cab. The engine was running wide open with the allison in gear and the brakes locked up. I worked on that engine for a good 5 minutes before resorting to the co2. I removed the fuel filters, the fire company had already cut the battery cables and the alternator was knocked off by the wreck which should have killed the engine by the shut down cylinder loosing power.
That driver was so happy when the engine finally quit and they got him out without serious injuries.

That day started off bad as I found out first thing in the morning that a gas engined rescue unit had been fueled with diesel. I worked all morning getting that cleaned up, new plugs, filters, and pumping out the tank. The no 1 unit was out on a call and we were running this one as a back up and the call came in just as I finished so I followed it to the scene to make sure that it was going to run ok. I didn't know that I'd be working on that 3208.

CaptRon

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Mike M

05-25-2006 04:31:37




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
Running away would surly kill that engine and maybe some bystanders and it sounds like the fire extinguisher was a good idea to prevent a major blow up. But is that engine going to be any good ? I have heard horror stories of fire extinguishers causing damage. At least they have something left to rebuild if it did hurt the insides of the engine.



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John S-B

05-25-2006 07:54:38




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to Mike M, 05-25-2006 04:31:37  
The stories you've heard about fire extinguishers causing damage is probably from someone using a water extinguisher not CO2. The water cannot be compressed so it will cause the damage. CO2 being a gas when released will compress but won't allow the combustion to continue in the cylinder.



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JDknut

05-25-2006 03:43:27




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
I never heard of a run away Diesel running backwards, but I guess a two cycle could. Two cycle ship diesels are reversed by starting them backward. But I thought that if a Diesel just ran away, it ran in the forward direction, don't know what kind of kick would make it go backward. I saw the results of a 3208 Cat that ran away, in a block truck, it wasn't pretty. It smoked like a big dog, so they called the fire department thinking it was on fire, but when we got there we quickly found out what it was. The driver said it wrapped the needle of the tach around the peg, practically. Scared the heck out of him, all that screaming of a Diesel winding past 7 grand and then blowing its cookies. The poor driver just about crapped his pants. Blew everything out the bottom end of that poor engine, too. He was going up a hill with a full load of block, for a short time, was doing pretty well until he hit the red line and just kept on going. Agree that the CO2 extinguisher was an excellent idea, someone was thinking on their feet in a pressure situation.

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JMS/MN

05-25-2006 07:58:31




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to JDknut, 05-25-2006 03:43:27  
I've seen results from one runaway diesl- actually over-revved. In '65 I was taking a Special Forces demolitions course at Ft. Belvoir, VA. Bus driver was taking us to a training area, and too late he realized a turn was coming up. Down-shifted at high speed and blew an eight inch hole through the crankcase when internal parts needed an exit strategy!



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Ben Rauls

05-24-2006 22:46:52




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
This was my first time seeing that happen none of us had a clue. thought about just letting it run till it didnt run anymore, they just go right to detriot to be rebult anyway. Most of thses trucks have less that 5k miles on them, our tax dollars hard at work.
Ben



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IA Roy

05-24-2006 20:24:03




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
If you wait very long, it will stop by itself. The oil pump does not pump in reverse and the crank will sieze.



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oliver fan

05-24-2006 19:19:59




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
Do just like Roger in Iowa said. With your brake pedal pushed down real hard, let the clutch out and then release it. The engine will stop, and if you push the clutch down quickly, it will reverse again, only this time it will be running correctly. I've done it many of times.

The only problem is, if you had the old style of air cleaner that was filled with oil, you had a hell of a mess.



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Ben Rauls

05-24-2006 22:41:53




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to oliver fan, 05-24-2006 19:19:59  
All of out trucks are Allison autos.
Ben



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Roger in Iowa

05-24-2006 18:59:17




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 Re: Detroit 92 series running backwards in reply to NC Wayne, 05-24-2006 18:51:35  
Put it in high gear and let out the clutch with the brakes on, but make sure there is nothing behind you, just in case.

Roger in Iowa



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