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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Propane Tractor Fueling

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Andrea

10-14-2006 02:18:39




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Last weekend we purchased an AC 190XT and an AC D17 on auction, and they are both factory propane. We thought we would be able to fill them from our normal propane tank by installing a wet line. However, there seems to be some disagreement amongst the local farm service personnel. Some say this will work but it will be slow (which is fine with me), yet others say it will not work at all because the tank on the tractor would have to sit lower than the propane tank we are filling from (and it won't).

My opinion is that filling the tractors has more to do with pressure than gravity, so it should work even if the tractor sits higher than the tank (as long as the tank isn't low on propane). Anyone have any experience with this? We really need to get this figured out, and a $2000 pump is not in the budget!!!

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Andrea

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Bus Driver

10-15-2006 04:47:22




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
A propane tank will not fill to capacity from a "nurse tank" that has no pump. The pressure is too low and gets lower as the nurse tank nears empty. The tractor will get only a partial fill. Local fellow here has deal with the propane company. He calls them and next time their truck is passing his house, which is frequently, they fill his tractor directly.



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RusselAZ

10-14-2006 16:49:34




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Hook it up to the filler hose about sundown an it will be full in the morning. Too full if you don't take it to the field early. If these don't have to be full for a big days work hook the filler hose up about sundown then in 4 or five hours it will have most of a tank. Doing it overnite or so saves blowing the pressure off.

Blowing off the pressure wasn't a big thing when propane was 4 cents a gallon.

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CLW

10-14-2006 15:09:35




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
third party image

Think of it as putting air from an airtank into a tire. Works the same way. As long as there is more pressure in tank than tire air will flow. When they get equel it will stop. So as long as you are bleeding the pressure from the tractor tank it will fill. I have a hose made that will let me put LP from a small BBQ type bottle into the tractor. I have to turn the bottle upside down becouse there is no wet line in them.

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37 chief

10-14-2006 08:53:18




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
I have several tractors that use propane. As others have said if the you drop the pressure in the tank you are filling it will fill. I have a hose I hook to a bleed valve and blow the tractor off this lowers the pressure fast. You can get every thing out of the nurse tank this way. Just don't let too much out as you will waste fuel. I would not recomend smoking, while doing this. Stan



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Glen in TX

10-14-2006 07:43:02




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
I never saw mentioned what size your nurse tank is but yeah you can fill it fine with a 200 or 250 gal. tank but just a tad slower after a few fills from a tank that size vs. 500 or 1000 gal. tanks but with wet line will work fine. Here is a link to another supplier we use if you have trouble finding stuff there.

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Ol Chief

10-14-2006 16:58:12




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Glen in TX, 10-14-2006 07:43:02  
I am in Texas,so in summer with sun on my nurse tank there is good high pressure in the tank.I just hook up my hose and open er up.I then just run cold well water over my tractor tank to reduce the internal pressure with out opening the vent to blow off internal pressure, I usually get about a 50 percent fill.Winter time is a different matter.Propane obeys the gas laws which are common to all gases.

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Glen in TX

10-14-2006 18:18:54




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Ol Chief , 10-14-2006 16:58:12  
That would work to fill one all right but be a bit slower than equalizing or running off some vapor. You can reduce the pressure of a tractor tank to fill it faster by running it on vapor 30 minutes to a hour before shutting down to fill also. A lot of it depends on where you live and what mix is common in your area now days compared to what we had years ago too with higher mixes of butane. Butane and propane are LPG liquified petroleum gases. Both are a gas at ordinary temperatures but are changed to liquids by compressing them in a tank. Butane boils at + 31 degrees F. and propane at - 44 deg. F. Mixtures of the two gases have boiling points between these two values because of different mixes that can vary from area to area. To keep the fuel liquid it must be kept under pressure at all times. This pressure can range from a few pounds in cold weather to extremely high pressures in hot weather. Both butane and propane are heavier than air and will settle in low quiet spots along ground or floor so it's not the same as all gases and being aware of that requires different handling to be safe with it. You want to be sure if butane or propane escapes everything is vented and none left in low lying areas if a spark were to occur. Natural gas is different and will rise in the atmosphere being lighter than air. Propane is as safe a fuel to use as any other once you understand it and handle it carefully.

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Andrea

10-14-2006 07:29:03




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Reposting so everyone sees my 'Thank You'!

Thanks so much for all of your quick replies!! I have been calling around ALL WEEK trying to get a straight answer and still had to post here. It seems everyone is in agreement, so I better get started calling around to find someone to put the line on!

Thanks again! You guys are great!

Andrea



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big jt

10-14-2006 07:21:50




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Hi Andrea

John A.j has it pretty much right as do the others. He just explained what you need. You might want to get a fitting to open the 3/4 vapor fitting. Speeds things up some.

When I first got a LP I got a used hose from the local COOP that was to old for anhydrous. $30 for fittings and valves and away I went. Since then I got a KRUG hand pump. I bought mine second hand but if memory serves me these are about $500 new. Worth considering. Your local supplier probably won't know anything about these. If you can find out who inspects and maintains the LP part of their delivery trucks this outfit should be able to help you.

If you are in either IA or MN I can give you a couple of names.

jt

ps I have enclosed a link to KRUG's web site.

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John A.j

10-14-2006 06:22:53




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Andrea, Let put this in simple easy to understandabe form.
LP in your nurse tank will....move.. via a hose (no pump) from an area of High Concentration and Pressure ....to an area.... of Low Concentration and Low Pressure.
Simply hook up the fill hose, Open main valves. Then Open the (Bleeder valve) to drop the pressure and concentration in the tank, the LP will move through the hose to the tank being filled. When the Bleeder valves runs liquid LP ...shut off the Bleeder and main valves. remove the hose and Off you Goooo. Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.

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Andrea

10-14-2006 07:23:42




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to John A.j, 10-14-2006 06:22:53  
Thanks so much for all of your quick replies!! I have been calling around ALL WEEK trying to get a straight answer and still had to post here.

It seems everyone is in agreement, so I better get started calling around to find someone to put the line on!

Thanks again! You guys are great!

Andrea



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Allan In NE

10-14-2006 07:29:43




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 07:23:42  
Talk to the fella who fills your tank.

If he doesn't have a clue as to what you are needing, get a new supplier. :>)

Allan



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regalbe

10-14-2006 05:32:30




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Mine would always fill faster early, before the heat of day.



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T_Bone

10-14-2006 04:59:25




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Hi Andrea,

Below is a reprint of small article I wrote a couple years back that explains why the transfer of liquid R290 happens without the use of a pump/compressor.

R290 = propane (another type of refrigerant)

As the temperature warms the bulk tank in the afternoon sun, the aux tank will refill quicker Vs comparring refilling at dawn.

Gravity would have no benefit to the refilling system other than under lab conditions. T&P is what is responsible for fluid flow as Jim pointed out with the aux tank vent open.


Refrigeration 101:

To have a complete understanding of the refrigeration process we need to define some rules to follow as it matters to use the correct terminology when designing or servicing heating, ventalating or refrigeration systems.

1) Cold only occurs at minus 460ºR or absolute zero. Above that we only have a absence of heat or can be stated as lack of heat. This is very important to understand as it helps in understanding all refrigeration or heating processes.

2) The accepted slang term AC does not mean "cold" as the true meaning stands for "air conditioning", that is to heat, cool, clean, humidifiy or dehumidifiy common air.

3) The second Law of Thermodymanics states:
"heat flows from a higher temperature source to a lower temperature source" This is really important to understand when dealing with refrigeration or heating as one can quickly figure direction of heat transfer at any point in a process.

4) There's several types of common heat exchangers:
a) air to air b) air to liquid
c) liquid to liquid


5) All refrigerants have a direct relationship between temperature and pressure (called it's T & P) that is to say that a refrigerant at 100º may have a pressure of 196psig and at 0º a pressure of 24psig. With knowing the T & P of the refrigerant I would know I'm dealing with refrigerant 22 (R22) using the above numbers.


Example #1:
A simple refrigeration process can be explained as where liquid refrigerant (from the bottom of a condensor) is fed into a small diameter orifice (capillary tube) that runs into a larger tube (evaporator). As the refrigerant enters the evaporator the refrigerant expands into saturated vapor (vaporized fluid) thus dropping pressure thus lowering it's temperature, hence the refrigerating effect has just completed.

Using the above T & P already discussed above, the condensor would have a temperature of 100º and the evaporator would be at 0º thus our evaporator would try to gain heat from it's surrounding area as stated by the 2nd Law of Thermodymanics.

Notice we never talked about the use of a compressor in the above example to obtain the refrigerating effect as only T & P was responsible for the cause of refrigeration effect as explained by the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.

Some refrigerated semi trailers and rail cars use a expendable refrigerant based upon the above example.

A typical outdoor HP uses the same above therory of refrigerating effect. A HP just adds a reversing valve for direction of refrigerant flow and a compressor for reusing the refrigerant with-in a closed loop refrigerant system. 0n a typical HP we want to use the evaporator as a condensor sometimes and the condensor as a evaporator sometimes and a reversing valve accomplishs this. The compressor pumps refrigerant from the evaporator to the condensor.

To keep this short as possible we will not address Latent heat of compression, the effect that a compressor adds to the refrigeration cycle.

Notice we never mention using any fans for the above HP unit to complete it's refrigeration cycle nor to obtain the refrigerating effect. Depending on the desired results would we add a fan.

During the time that our outdoor HP is in the heating mode, the condensor is used as a evaporator. That means were trying to refrigerate the ambient air and thus obtain heat, (see the begining of example #1). As the HP continues to run the outside eveporator begins to ice from trying to absorb heat from the surrounding air as well gathers moisture. To defrost this ice build up we momentary reverse the refrigerant flow thus melting the ice and the "swoosh" sound our HP makes when it reverses refrigerant flow.

Now to increase the heat flow to our HP evaporator during heating mode we can add a liquid to liquid heat exchanger with taking heat from a ground source hence the name geothermal. Now that ground source heat could be obtained form well water or a secondary coil located with-in water with a ground source heat sink.

There's many different ways to accomplish a ground source heat gain but a liquid to liquid heat exchanger has the highest efficiency ratio.

T_Bone

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jddriver

10-14-2006 04:30:49




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
All I ever used was a nurse hose as Allen said



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Allan In NE

10-14-2006 04:21:47




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
Andrea,

Buy the nurse hose; its all ya need.

Allan



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Tx Jim

10-14-2006 03:26:54




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 Re: Propane Tractor Fueling in reply to Andrea, 10-14-2006 02:18:39  
You are correct in the fact that one can fill a tractor taller than a normal lpg tank/wetline by opening vapor valve on tractor. No high $$$$$ pump is required. BTDT,Tx Jim



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