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Property lines survey or gps?

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MN Bob

10-19-2006 06:12:51

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Few years ago neighbors hired some guy to do an un-official survey, he marked it off. I told 3 different family members it was wrong on the north, close on the south. They mowed hay, So I mowed to that line. Same since. Now I get a call that there is an error and I have been getting their hay. Do I owe? We are meeting this weekend to establish GPS co-ordinate. I am not worried about a couple feet unless a fence goes up. What do you think? No survey in this area in many years so no markers established. Official survey will be big $. Bob

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sshev

10-19-2006 17:12:36

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

hello,
I'm a Licensed Professional Land Surveyor in the State of Iowa, I also happen to like old farmalls, which explains how I happened across this post. First I like to say that GPS is but one measurement tool used by land surveyors when it is appropriate. However, that certainly doesn't mean anyone with a GPS unit can retrace government lines or make determinations on property lines anymore than owning a scalpel makes you a doctor. Hand held GPS units are no where near accurate enough to determine property boundaries even if the operator did have some schooling about how to recover government land corners, or the rules of section subdivision, or rights gained through possesion, or junior/senior rights or any of the other property rights issues that Licensed Professional Land Surveyors are tested on in order to achieve licensure, and are required to keep up on through continuing education. Hand held GPS may get meter accuracy. The GPS systems we use utilize a rover and a base unit. This is called differential GPS. This type of system yields sub-centimeter accuracies. GPS units that we surveyors use cost thousands of dollars more than the hand helds because they produce the accuracies we are required by state code to achieve. Any non-licensed individuals attempting to determine property lines can and should be turned in to the state board of engineering and land surveying examiners for practicing without a license and might be subject to penalty. A professional surveyor will prepare a plat of his work and file a copy with the county recorder. In addition he will stand behind his work in court if necessary. Using a non-licensed person to determine property lines is a good way to get yourself sued and should that occur you won't have a leg to stand on. Use the professional. Compared to the cost of land these days, accurately determining your property boundaries and the area contained with them may turn out to be a real bargain. Scott

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cannonball

10-20-2006 03:45:45

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to sshev, 10-19-2006 17:12:36

do you loose any land with a gps, does it take in account for down and up or just shoot straight across, i know this sounds crazy but as far as surface area you may have more sq ft than by gps..pipeline companies love these you loose some rods this way or we did when i measured them by tape... so what is your comment on this... thanks

MAY GOD BLESS THE USA

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sshev

10-20-2006 04:58:20

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to cannonball, 10-20-2006 03:45:45

no you don't "loose" any land measuring with GPS. as I said Global Positioning is mearly a newer method of measurement. Surveyors have always used "plumb" or level distances in there measurements, not along the surface of the ground if there were significant elevation changes. When measuring by hand was replaced by electronic total stations which use infrared light reflected off of a prism to measure distance, the instrument also measured vertical angles and corrected internally for horizontal distance. Scott

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Tramway Guy

10-19-2006 14:27:24

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

Surveyors do use GPS, but the ones they use are much more accurate than the handheld ones. They are supposed to take into account every previous survey, and existing landmarks. Good, experienced surveyors generally give good results - - and they cost more. But they are worth it.
A neighbor and I paid over $5000 to survey and split a 92-acre parcel we bought at an auction two years ago. It had not been surveyed for almost 100 years. The earth's magnetic pole has actually shifted since then. It was very rough going, also.

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Kyfivepoints

10-19-2006 11:23:59

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

How do you get the coordinates?

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MN Bob

10-19-2006 15:19:25

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to Kyfivepoints, 10-19-2006 11:23:59

Should be able to get them from the county land and or forestry office. State also can get them if you get the right person and they will do it. They have programs that can calculate from the closest known point. Its accurate, the gps may not be. My county said theirs cost just over 5 grand and its still not a survey accurate unit. Bob

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c hess

10-19-2006 11:21:07

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

Just a thought , When you plot acourse to fly with a airplane you have to factor in a few degrees of isoganic deviation to your course (degrees east or west longitude)that you get off of aeronical chart(maP) Would this be why some gps measurments that some of you find are off an some are accurate as degrees vary in different areas of country?

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glennster

10-19-2006 10:48:13

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

i bought a farm 2 years ago, the serveyors came out before closing, used gps to survey the farm. the gps was off about 20 ft. they staked the farm off, my stakes were 6 rows into the neighbors all around. needless to say, there were some upset folks. i met with all the neighbors and we identified the origional property boundaries. our attorney sent the surveyors out to re survey from the benchmark in the area. not suprisingly, the origional markers were correct, the gps was wrong. it would be in your best interest to check with your attorney to see how to proceed. each state has differetnt laws. whatever you do be sure to document it!!! if it goes to court, you need something in writing. send a registered letter, return receipt to the neighbor, explaing that there may be a problem with the survey and property lines, keep a copy. have a surveyor re survey the property from a known benchmark, not a gps signal. register the survey with the county.its better to take care of the problem now, its real hard to straighten it out later . you may want to borrow a metal detector and see if there are any iron rods driven in the ground from the origional surveys when it was first platted.

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paul

10-19-2006 08:45:28

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

Proprerty line may not matter. If you been working the land for 7 or 20 years or whatever the rule is in your county, it is yours.

Just something to think about.

Past is the past, you don't owe anything.

Sorting this out often leads to a lot of hurt feelings.

Don't know anyone who doesn't have some issues like this.

--->Paul

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Dave from MN

10-19-2006 09:29:05

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to paul, 10-19-2006 08:45:28

Hello Paul, curious,So my dad has about 40' of feild on both the north and south side of his woods that he had been "letting" the neighbors just plant right up to the woods, for like 35 years, to be a nice guy. The guy on the north side the last few years has even started to cut trees/branches down that dont let him get right up the woods with his equipment, he even takes the wood, and his property is actually 40+ feet from the woods. Are you saying that if he sells that 30 acres feild he may be able to clain that he owns to the woods , which would be about 3 acres of my dads, land there is currently about $800-$10,000/acre. If so any advice, the ol man has just been a nice guy, I dont want to see him get screwed as I know that farmer plans on selling of that 30 acres in the next year or 2.

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John (MO)

10-19-2006 10:52:40

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to Dave from MN, 10-19-2006 09:29:05

10-4

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FreeRanger

10-19-2006 09:49:08

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I would say you have lost interest in reply to Dave from MN, 10-19-2006 09:29:05

In Wisconsin, I think you would have lost interest in the 40 feet about $30,000. Better get your father out there now with a surveyor TODAY!

Nice guys lose land around here all the time. Bullies get the benefit. The guy to your North is taking advantage of you.

I have on paper from surveyor 7' past fence for 1500' but really don't have it to use. Neighbor in front of me riped out fence and fought other neighbor for his 7' by 500' peice. He won but the law was not on his side.

I am loosing 11'x1000' on the South end as well. Laws say fence posts rule in our township not surveys.

If you don't have any fence posts in at the corners then I would run out there today with the oldest fence post you can find and pound them in! BEFORE the surveyor goes out.

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Don-Wi

10-19-2006 23:56:30

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Re: I would say you have lost interest in reply to FreeRanger, 10-19-2006 09:49:08

Kinda along the same lines here.... For quite a few years, we've been taking canary grass of a swamp that belonged to someone else, then they sold it (to a developer) and we came upon another verbal agreement that we can take the grass from it. That was 2 years ago and this year we didn't bother asking again, we just went ahead and took it and if they had a problem, they know where to find us.

If we keep takeing it off for so many years, does that mean we can stake a claim to it? We've been getting the grass for well over 7 years without any kind of written agreement.... I don't want to be an a$$, the whole subject just kinda peeked my interest....

Donovan from Wisconsin

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Chad Franke

10-19-2006 09:40:59

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to Dave from MN, 10-19-2006 09:29:05

Depends on your state, but in general, yep. Called adverse posession. Unless the "loaning" of the land is on paper, renewed every so often, you may be in for a fight...depending on how good of a neighbor you have anyway. In a case like that, better to write up a lease, renew annually unless either party notifies, for .01 dollar per year (or whatever amount).

We leased one pasture that way, they put up the fence about 15 feet over the line (lost the 15 feet of pasture) over about a half mile. When we took over the pasture and Dad questioned it, only had a year to get it settled before Colorado law called that fence the property boundry...

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T_Bone

10-19-2006 10:35:21

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to Chad Franke, 10-19-2006 09:40:59

My son went thru a simular problem this past year in Arizona. The contractor (son's) built his fence 2ft on his neighbors property.

The only thing that would have made a difference is if the son had recorded the survey with the county. Once the survey is recorded and uncontested for 7yrs then if becomes absolute fact and very rare that it would be ordered changed.

The only way then the survey can be contested is in court with all the risk upon the surveyor's head being liable to both land owners if the survey is wrong. Without the survey being recorded, the risk lies with the offending party.

I have no idea what the "new" law the surpreme court thru in last year as that all came after my son's research. Changed anything???

That 100ft of block fence cost the contractor $5000 to have it moved.

T_Bone

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Midwest redneck

10-19-2006 08:43:31

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

My BIL is a surveyor. He stakes lines all the time, I would recommend a surveyor, not cheap though, about $800/day for a 2 man crew. I also would agree that a real survey is the way to go for legal reasons.

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10-19-2006 07:45:40

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

get neighbors to agree to a surveyor and when the lines are run have the surveyor place markers on the line that you can see. i had my farm (140 acres)done several year ago and we placed metal post all along the line so that you can always tell where the line is. used around 100 post to get all the way around like i wanted it.

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IH2444

10-19-2006 06:22:08

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to MN Bob, 10-19-2006 06:12:51

GPS is not accurate enough for property lines. It will get you close if you know what the coordinates are, but....

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Dave from MN

10-19-2006 06:31:43

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to IH2444, 10-19-2006 06:22:08

I agree, we use GPS to try and follow prop line through woods from marker to marker and ended up 50' off. I would get an agreed on surveyor with all you adjacent property owners and split the cost. Put in good surveyed markers to stop future confusion. If 3 owners have 3 different surveyors, you'll end up with 3 differentproperty lines. In my experience. I am dealing with "that fence is the line" conflicts from a fence put up 60 years ago that was paced off from over a 1/2 mile. It is no where close to the surveyed marks but nieghbor would lose a good deer stand and trail. So it is causing some issues as I do not want some one shooting from that stand which would be directly at our home which you cant see with the woods.

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jw in va

10-19-2006 08:44:24

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to Dave from MN, 10-19-2006 06:31:43

Somehow you really need to get a true survey done .Laws vary from state to state but thats the first thing I would do.Future generations/owners will be glad you did.I ran into this a few years back and I can tell you that where someone ran a fence is not always on the line.You may have to file a plat with the court to establish your claim after the survey is done.In my state it is not a good idea to cut timber on someone elses property as you may end up paying three times the stumpage value .

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Harley

10-19-2006 09:02:54

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to jw in va, 10-19-2006 08:44:24

When I got this place, 281 acres and mostly rough hills, brush, trees, and rock ledges, you couldn't walk 5 feet without falling down a hill, walking off a bluff, or getting tangled up in something. Needless to say, putting up a line fence was almost out of the question. I got a hand held GPS thingy and started seeing where the lines were. I got within three feet of all the cornes when they surveyed it. I was pretty impressed. Two of the six corners had previous metal stakes and I found them. As stated before though, they get you close so you can find the original stakes, but shouldn't be relyed on to be accurate. Harley

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MN Bob

10-19-2006 15:26:22

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Re: Property lines survey or gps? in reply to Harley, 10-19-2006 09:02:54

Thanks guys- Knew I could count on some good advise from you. Well I did get to talk to the county land office manager. The man he sent out used their 5 thousand dollar gps and marked a "close" (but not survey accurate) point. Still waiting for the call when he is ready to meet. I do know where the section line marker is and have used that to "find" my line and corner but again, not survey accurate. Bob

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