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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

160* Thermostat, why?

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Aaron Ford

12-13-2006 17:31:55




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I was wondering why a manufacturer would specify a 160* thermostat. My local parts store found that a Stant 13006 most closely matched the thermostat in my MF65 gas. I drilled a 1/16 inch hole in it cause the original had one in hopes that an air bubble would not develop. Hope it works. Will post with results when I can bolt a radiator up to it.

Let's go Mountaineers,

Aaron




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RN

12-14-2006 12:57:43




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
A thermostat closed will let the engine heat to close to operating temperature quickly after startup, oil will flow as designed. Thermostat opens with warm water as designed- the idea is to get to operating temperature and not get too cool. Warm head and manifolds help vaporize fuel, better combustion(and cleaner burn). Think of the thermostat as setting a lower limit for waterflow/temperature control instead of upper limit. Old tractors without thermostats? Often no waterpump either- thermosiphon sytem, radiator shutters used on them often to keep engine warmer in cool weather. RN

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coflyboy

12-14-2006 12:53:58




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
I've been told that proper automotive computer operation is dependant on coolant temperature, so only the recommeded thermostat should be used.



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oldcraneguy

12-14-2006 11:18:05




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
Running without a T-stat wont always make em run cooler, Had a friend with a hopped up 292 in a 56 Ford that ran 200 degrees without and between 170-180 with a 160 degree T-stat, seems the water wasnt gettin cooled enough at full flow, go figure



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dan hill

12-16-2006 01:58:59




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to oldcraneguy, 12-14-2006 11:18:05  
Friends and I sawed firewood with a model A Ford.It would boil over in december sawing large dia. wood.A thermostat stopped the problem.The water has to spend time in the radiator to get rid of the heat.160 thermostats were used because alcohol antifreeze boils at 160.30s chevys had this on the temp gauge. Alcohol boils at 160.I have some 141 thermostats.Perm antifreeze was expensive in the early fifties, 6.00 a gallon, a days pay for many people.Alcohol was 1.00 a gallon.

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supergrumpy

12-14-2006 08:12:34




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
thermodynamics, carnot cycle, adiabatic curves, indicator cards, makes my head hurt to remember all that stuff

supposedly, every bit of energy in the fuel either goes out the exhaust, into the engine block or out the crankshaft, what about the gas you spill filling the tank??

with a hotter thermostat/engine block, the heat transfer into the cooling system is slightly reduced so a bit more energy is available to go out the crankshaft

thats the b/s they gave me years ago

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Allan In NE

12-14-2006 02:41:29




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
Back not too many years ago (the late 60s), the general accepted theory was that cooler was better. It was thought that if somthing was "hot" to our human touch, then it must be "too hot" for other materials as well.

Effects of overpopulation started producting a by-product called smog. It was found that the leading culprit that was leading to this effect was the burning of fossil fuels and that internal combustion engines were the main offender.

The EPA was created by the federal government, which set up regulations and goals to reduce these emissions. By law, manufactures had to comply with these emmision-reducing regulations and started experimenting with ways in which to get this accomplished.

Well, guess what? It was found that by running an engine hotter, not only were emmisions reduced by getting a more complete burn, but also more power was squeezed out of a given volume of fuel and surprisingly, engines started lasting longer.

The engines were actually "healther" if run at higher temperatures.

Allan

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mj

12-14-2006 11:49:31




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Allan In NE, 12-14-2006 02:41:29  
Or, to quote Smokey Y., "Hot water and cold air makes horsepower".



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Glen in TX

12-14-2006 09:38:34




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Allan In NE, 12-14-2006 02:41:29  
Wow I'm impressed Allan, but it's all true lol. We've known that about our old JD 2 cylinders for years though to run them hotter and they didn't even use thermostats on early ones unless you consider shutters on radiator a early form of a thermostat. :)



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Tom in TN

12-13-2006 20:45:04




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
Aaron,

I'm sure that most guys will disagree with this, but it's what I do nonetheless. I don't use a thermostat at all in my 1973 Ford 2000 gas tractor. When I started working on cars back in the 1950's in Ohio, no one used a thermostat in the summer. Thermostats were only installed in the Fall so that the heaters would work more efficiently. Everyone removed the thermostats in the Spring and ran until Fall without one.

I've heard all of the arguments about condensation in the engine, oil temperature, incomplete combustion etc. However, in my experience, I don't see that any of those things happen. The temperature inside the engine is in hundreds of degrees. Having the water going through the cooling passages a few degrees hotter or cooler doesn't make enough difference to talk about. The oil in my engine gets very hot without a thermostat - just touch the dipstick some time. I don't have black smoke coming out of the exhaust, etc.

I never have to worry about air trapped in the system, and I've never had a thermostat failure in my tractor (since it doesn't have one).

So, I've "exposed my soft tissue" on this matter, but I'm probably not going to change my mind at this point anyway.

Good luck,

Tom in TN

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dan hill

12-16-2006 02:18:40




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Tom in TN, 12-13-2006 20:45:04  
Consider how lousy a tractor runs in cold weather until it warms up.In summer it will move out with no problem but at 3o degrees it has to be half choked and skips.In the northeast 160 thermostats were used in the summer 180 in winter.190 thermostats are common now.Engines without thermostats run uneven temps.Short trips are hard on engines.Ever wonder why car makers put thermostats in engines.



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RodInNS

12-14-2006 14:29:25




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Tom in TN, 12-13-2006 20:45:04  
I don't do too much with the old gas engines, but I've spent a lot of hours on the Ford diesels. I've changed a few thermostats on them over the years, and any time I tried to run a cooler stat, the engines simply wouldn't pull. The closer they sit to 190, the better they run. Especially when they get some hours on them. Whenever I change a stat now, it's a 188 that goes in. That might be warm on a gas engine, but good for the diesel.
Running one without a stat, I doubt it would ever get warm, or it would take a long time and hard pulling. I just drop the 188 stat in, and it's there year round until it gets opened up for something else.

Rod

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RAB

12-13-2006 23:06:39




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Tom in TN, 12-13-2006 20:45:04  
Tom,
Do you run your modern motor without a thermostat?
Might depend on your climate as to whether thermostat could be removed, with little effect on wear etc.
Most tractors were fitted with a thermostat in the 50s and the earlier ones had a thermostat as well - a radiator blind manually operated - and instructions for operation was included in the operators manual. They new then the importance of running-temperatures in engines.
Technology has moved on since then, oil is better quality and different specs. Fuel is at a much higher price now and different specs. Everything has changed, so why not be a little more conscious of using excess fuel etc in these days of global warming?
RAB

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buickanddeere

12-14-2006 19:45:00




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to RAB, 12-13-2006 23:06:39  
Tom

You are just kidding, right? And pulling our legs?



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Davis In SC

12-13-2006 19:40:40




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
Some thermostats have a "Jiggler"... sort of a rivet, fitted loosely in a hole, to allow air to come to the top....



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Gerald J.

12-13-2006 18:44:58




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
For using alcohol antifreeze. A 180 gives better results all around with permanent antifreezes. And gets the oil hot enough to boil off condensation that would make sludge otherwise.

Geral J.



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Jon Hagen

12-13-2006 18:05:42




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Aaron Ford, 12-13-2006 17:31:55  
The lower temp thermostat may be to prevent coolant loss if the tractor has a cooling system cap pressure of less than 14 pounds,which is usually the minimum pressure for a 180 thermostat. I used to drill a 1/8 inch hole in my race car thermostats,it really helped with purging all the air out of the cooling system.



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Bob

12-13-2006 19:50:37




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Jon Hagen, 12-13-2006 18:05:42  
Some tractors that were made in gas or diesel specify a 180 or 190 thermostar for the diesels, and a 160 for the gassers.

I would suspect they tried to keep the gassers a little cooler, even when worked hard so they didn't "detonate" as easily, preventing piston damage.



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Aaron Ford

12-14-2006 08:43:27




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 Re: 160* Thermostat, why? in reply to Bob, 12-13-2006 19:50:37  
Thanks guys. The system is indeed a 7lb system. Detonation was certainly a problem in this engine's past. It destroyed the sleeves, piston tops and broke all the top rings.

I have seen engines run without a thermostat.

One overheated til one was installed?

One was sludged up so bad it took three men with pry bars to get the intake manifold off. The owner was using Pennzoil, STP, and making only short trips. Not sure what the real problem was but that engine was completely full.

The rest had no problems whatsoever.

My first car ran better with a 195* than a 180*. Smoother, alot more "pull".

I will monitor the temps on this tractor closely. I have a lot invested and REALLY don't want to make a mistake... I would like to run a hotter thermostat, but likely will leave everything as it is due to what I have changed already (7.1:1 to 9.1:1). Let's get this sorted out first.

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