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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

O/T Property rights

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SamMI

01-05-2007 05:16:48




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Adjacent owner had his land surveyed last summer for a timber harvesting contractor. Turns out that the road he uses to access his hunting camp is on my land. I have owned this property for ten years. The road in question was there for many years prior to my ownership. I dont have a problem with the road however; I wonder if a letter or other document is necessary to protect my interests? Thanks,

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SamMI

01-06-2007 04:08:33




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
My thanks to everybody for the reply's. Lots of good advice. Guess I will talk to an attorney soon.



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noncompos

01-05-2007 10:16:21




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
As usual in these cases, John T's post is an excellent thumbnail of such situations, particularly their complexity; I'll just add a couple of points (not that John doesn't know about them but because it's impossible to cover everything in these short posts):
(1) non-use is not necessarily proof of abandonment or of intent to abandon;
(2)"hostile" "adverse" "notorious" just means use with your knowledge and with no questions or objections by you, kind of an implied permission; it's flowery legal language and doesn't require any kind of physical confrontation to've happened.
(3) some areas have what is called "Record of Survey" laws/administrative regulations etc; they provide that private surveyors have to "record" their surveys in the County Surveyors office like a deed is recorded in the deed etc records. I've been gone too long to know their effect; I doubt they could change a boundary, but they could illustrate discrepancies, and it seems they could be used as evidence. (4) a MAJOR point: Expanded Use. A has used a road over B's land for access to A's 20 ac, and has acquired a prescriptive use/adverse use easement. A used the 20 ac for vacations or occasional recreation. Now A decides to build a house,commuting every day; he also need utilities: water, electric, gas lines. Does his esmt cover that?? OR A decides to split the 20 ac into two homesites; or four, with the increased use of the road. Where do As esmt rights stop?? This's probably become fairly well settled now in some states, but it used to give both us and the landowners annoyed, inconvenienced, or damaged? by increased use sharp and shooting pains. Now I'm getting as long as John T, and I haven't even gotten into forcing ways of necessity, or of the states annoying and confusing use of differing (instead of a universal) language to describe these terms and points...

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John T

01-05-2007 12:19:26




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to noncompos, 01-05-2007 10:16:21  
WOWWWWW WWWWW excellent points. I love property law as its really the OLDEST LAW OUT THERE. Alllll ll the other common and statutory law developed after and out of the legal issues concerning how we acquire, convey, hold, contract for n protect our beloved PROPERTY. In law school Estates in Land and Future Interests AND ALL THAT Blackacre from O to A for life then to such n such remainders and the famous Rule Against Perpetuities was funnnnn nn lol. Rememeber all that landlord n tenant law n sharehold interests and estates alllll developed from the english feudal method of land ownership wooooo o hooooo oo.

Our prof caled alllll other lawyers Upstarts n Johnny Come Latelys lol. Yep youre right theres thousands of other laws n issues that come into play here and more then we could ever address.

Enough here so not to bore the others, if you dont know me you will realize get me talkin law or electricity and Im good to go lol

Yall take care now

John T

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noncompos

01-05-2007 20:59:36




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to John T, 01-05-2007 12:19:26  
John: They think roads/easements are complicated? Wait"ll someone has an old church lot on land donated 100 years ago and no affiliation with any mainline denomination, or a RR R/W (I don"t know which is worse). I"m not an atty, but a decades-long land title examiner, who read too many Advance Notes (decision reports in Oregon; don"t recall what they were called in Calif). But then Search & Seizure can be just as bad: (A) foot Officer stopped "suspicious looking " individual; while inquiring his purpose in area, squatted down while "suspect" standing. From squatted position saw edge of plastic bag under flap of shirt pocket, asked to see, was pot. Conviction for possession set aside by Appeals Court (improper search and seizure, officer had no PC to squat). (B) Car officer saw car parked well off County road, stopped to check. Trunk open inch or so, officer squatted, looked in, saw cases of beer. Officer continued patrol, didn"t call for tow as car no danger to motorists. Oficer got call re" just reported house burglary, beer etc taken. Returned to parked car as men approached with gas can, asked to see trunk contents. Conviction for burglary, theft upheld by appeals court (officer squatting to look in trunk was "normal effort to determine whether car a danger of any kind". Weird, just weird.

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Jon Hagen

01-05-2007 09:40:54




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
FWIW A school in a fairly large ND city has a road on their land that is used as a city street,and has been for many years.

To protect their right of ownership to the bit of land this road is on,they block any public access to this road to one day per year.



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John T (Country Lawyer)

01-05-2007 08:21:16




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
Wow, We've had a rash of these similar type questions lately and I hear the same often as I practice out here in the country. Its IMPOSSIBLE to explain what it takes years and large textbooks to understand and different states have different rules but I will toss out a few basics which may help you understand a very complex legal issue. 1) Surveys or Surveyors DO NOT set boundaries as a strict matter of law. Surveyors are qualified to render "expert opinion" and can set where they believe boundaries to be based on deeds n legal descriptionds which are as accurate as the critical starting point and their abilities.

2) Boundaries are determined by a huge and well settled body of law whereby the Courts NOT adjoining landowners or Surveyors may say. In Indiana there is a legal process to have a "legal survey" conducted whereby a surveyors stakes might later be judicially determined to constitute a boundary and that becomes the legal and final boundary line.

3) As far as this road you mentioned, and REGARDLESS where the exact boundary line is, once a certain statutory period has passed its quite possible the road user has already acquired whats called an "easement by prescription" which means even if it is on your land you can no longer prevent him from that continued use until such time he may abandon it. NOWWWWW theres a lot of law and requirements that go into this which cant be covered in a paragraph here but in a nutshell he must have used it as a roadway for a certain time (like 10 to 20 yrs depends on statute) in a manner thats HOSTILE OPEN CONTINUOUS ADVERSE AND NOTORIOUS TO THE PERSON WHO OWNS THE LAND.

4) NOW heres the kicker and I think JD covered it quite well, IFFFFF F the use is by your express permission it can never be considered to be ADVERSE AND HOSTILE against your interests so a legal action for an easement by prescription may fail. Thats why in order to avoid the neighbor acquiring a legal easement by prescription you could grant him permission to do so which will help (NOT perfect or foolproof mind you) your case and I would recommend good amissible evidence of such in the form of certified letters return recepit over the years. The certified mail return receipt letetrs avoids the problems of proof and he said she said arguments.

5) HOWEVERRRRR RR the time periods for the adverse use can be "tacked" meaning if the prior landowner (the guy you bought the land from) had let this use go on in a hostile open exclusive adverse and notorous manner for a certain number of years (his and your time add/tack together remember) an easement by prescription may have alreay taken place legally and nuttin you do now at a time later can cure it !!!!! !!!!!

BOTTOM LINE it may well be that an easement by prescription (10 to 20 yrs of use couting the guy you bought land from) has alreay ripened and its tooooo late for you to do nuttin by now. STILLLLL LL it can help and I would still take preventitive steps to help your case in the future 10 or 20 yrs from now cuz if the roadway use stops and/or the easement is abandoned the adverse user would have to start all over again to ever acquire another easement by prescription IE JUST DO IT REGARDLESS like what your local attorney advises as far as permission or a demand to cease and decist the use etc WHICH WOULD REQUIRE THE ADVERSE USER TO BEAR THE TIME N EXPENSE OF COURT TO ESTABLISH THE EASEMENT BY PRESCRIPTION TO BE JUDICIALLY DETERMINED. If he simply gives up and abandons the easement YOU WIN

FREE ADVISE get the advice n opinion from a local attorney who knows the law in your state n county and even if its too late he may still advise you of notice and subsequent things like certified mail etc which could help your case in the future. The other thing he may recommend is an official demand to cease the use which forces the users hand cuz at that time he must face the choice of going to court to establish n win his easement or else stop and abandon it !!!!! !!!!! !!!!

Sounds to me like already tooooo o late if the road use has taken place so long and no one granted any official or permission for the use whereby such was ADVERSE AND HOSTILE yet nobody did nuttin.

This is similar to "adverse possession" law but not quite the same. I think its a good body of law which I didnt necessarily agree with (as a farmer) until I studied and understood the big picture.

Best wishes n God Bless yall

John T BSEE, JD Attorney at Law in Indiana (retired electrical engineer and Attorney ONLY AFTER a real life first as an engineer n farmer lol)

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jdemaris

01-05-2007 07:30:21




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 Watch out for adverse rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
Yes, you could have a problem and it may be too late to protect yourself. It's complicated. I've had almost exactly the same problem. In your case though, I assume you haven't checked for any deeded right-of-ways? People using a road through your property can claim they've done so without your permission. With the right judge, then can call it "adverse" and thus get a permanent easement. In my situation - I send out a certified letter every 9 years to all adjacent property owners - informing them that I give temporary permission for all to use my road. It can be retracted at any time - and if anybody claims to have rights/easements - to contact me. Will this protect me? I don't know - but it prevents them from claiming an "adverse easement" since I've given permission. If you want to read on - here are the specifics to my situation. I bought a 50 acre parcel of forest land in northen NY 20 years ago. It is surrounded by wood lots and hunting camps. 20 years ago - one logger owned all the land as one parcel - and parceled it out all at once. There was an old town road cutting through all the properties. The original Town Road has long been mostly under water - hadn't been used or maintained since 1910. A hunting camp at one end - erected a steel gate thus closing access for the public to the old town road and the town did nothing about it. All the properties have the old town road mentioned on their deeds for access. When the logger cut for the last time, he built a logging road through the center of my property - and that is how I access it. It connects to a maintained Town road. Now, many adjacent property owners are land-locked - unless they use the logging road on my property. Many assume it's the remnant of the old Town road - and it's not. Last year - a logger - working on a parcel beyond mine, bulldozed my property - and put lots of fill in - so he could come and go with his log truck. I pressed charges against him. He first insisted he was "doing me a favor." I did not agree. We finally settled, and he signed paperwork acknowledging he had been trespassing and illegally widened the road. I planted new trees, and moved dirt, and narrowed it again. I only get up there once or twice a year - it's four hours from where I live. Every time I go there, I find trees removed, fill put in wet spots, etc. Many of the property owners have been asking the Town to take over the road - on my property! I told them to get the Town to fix the original road for all to use - but since it's been long under beaver-water - they don't want to deal with it. If fact, the Town has made efforts to claim it never WAS a real town road.
So, what will happen in the future, I don't know. If I lived there - I'd put up a gate, guard it, and let things fly. But - without living there - any such gate would just get knocked down. I was also warned - that if I put up any fences, and someone gets hurt on a four-wheeler or snowmobile - on my heavily posted property - I will be held legally repsonsible. I said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm not sure it's worth owning property anymore. At least, not in New York State.

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IaGary

01-05-2007 05:31:09




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
As long as all parties involved know who's road it is and hes not arguing the point continue as usual.

But if he is going to haul the logs out the road you might want something stating he will repair any damages that might be done to the road.

Those skidders can dig some big trenches.

Gary



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John (C-IL)

01-05-2007 05:26:56




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 Re: O/T Property rights in reply to SamMI, 01-05-2007 05:16:48  
A little research may be in order to see if an easement had been granted at some time in the past. If you and the neighbor are friendly it's good to keep it that way. Your only real concern is that the neighbor doesn't file for adverse possession.



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