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OT : what is middle class poverty?

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Dave from MN

01-11-2007 05:04:21




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I keep seeing new breifs that middle class people are "struglng to survive", having to work 2 jobs. Ok what is middle class? My wifes and I's income combined id about a little over $100,000. I am a grower, she is a medical records manager. 69% income comes from the farm. We live decent and are saving money and working on paying off mortgage early. We would love to have new things , but we cant. Not because we cant afford, but because we know it would jeapordize out goals. Yet , i hear so much that we need to help the middle class, fix it so they dont need to have to incomes? Well most people I know that are middle class? IMOP. Are couple s that have a new house with 3 more bedrooms than they have kids, each have a new vehicle every other year if not every year, they have a snowmoblie for each and some for each kid, they have boats, ATV's also. They eat out at least 1 time a week, They all wear the latest trends in clothes. Then at the same time they complain they have no money, that it is soo hard to make it on 2 salaries, cause they pay too much tax, that they pay too much for groceries, that prop taxes are too high for their "mansion". I see this scenario as over indulgence, not middle class poverty. I think people have two incomes that are living lavishly are just making their bed, so lie in it. Maybe I dont understand what all the hype is for in the media about helping the middle class? I think the "class" that needs the help are the lower class, the ones that cant find a good paying job, the ones that are living with 4 kids in a small modest home. The ones that can not afford to take time off to improve their education. I believe I am upper "middle class" with the income we have, and I am grateful forwhat I have and am happy with what I have. So someone explain to me please what really is middle class, if I am middle class, some explain to me what it is I need that the media and congress has been blabbing about. Over indulgent lifestyles that is what is wrong with many

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Bret4207

01-12-2007 04:47:14




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
It"s the name applied to those voters the politicians haven"t got hooked on handouts yet. They work alot, have bought into the "easy credit/instant gratification" idea and they haven"t started blaming "The Government/Rich/Big Oil/Tobbacco/etc" for their problems with money yet. As soon as they realize they are "victims" they"ll look for a handout and in debt to the guy that gave it to them.

In this country in this day and age there is no need for anyone to suffer in anyway, go hungry or not have a decent lifestyle if they make the right choices. But human greed, lazyness and ego cause most of the problems.

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kyplowboy

01-11-2007 18:08:29




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
I have to agree with most every one here. It is all aobut personal choices. We all choose to live the way we do. It makes me sick to drive to work and go past the homes of people who draw food stamps. They have a yard full of empty bud light cans, dirty kids, and dish network dishes all over the house. I go home from work, work a few hours on the farm, get a shower, drink a bush light and watch NBC. I choose to pay my bills.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Dave

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NEsota

01-11-2007 12:10:21




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Dave from MN, Please, please do not make such a big deal out of dropping out. I received my diploma with the rest of my H.S. class but it was more than seven years later and after I started college that I really got a H.S. education. Warren Buffet (Berkshire Hathaway) and Bill Gates (Microsoft, founder) were on the same stage recently when Warren jokingly said; “You know I am the only college graduate up here.” As you know, Bill dropped out of Hawwvad to start the company. If one can do a Microsoft w/o college then nobody who does well in life needs to feel bad about not graduation from H.S. That said, probably one of the ways being a college grad helped me the most was that it gave me new confidence. That I needed.

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Hard Knocks

01-11-2007 10:24:27




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Compared to the rest of the world most everyone in the US is rich beyond belief and truly blessed.



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dhermesc

01-11-2007 09:48:50




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Remember what being middle class used to be?

I hate to bring in TV but look at a few shows in history that defined middle class;

The Honeymooners: Hubby drove a bus, lived in a one bedroom apartment, wife did odd jobs to earn money to help pay the rent - today they'd be working poor with food stamps.

Leave it to Beaver: Dad was a engineer with a college degree that served in the Army. They had a nice house, but nothign beyond basic appliances, only one TV, one car, and when Wally wanted one he went out and earned the money himself. When the kids wanted money they picked up jobs like mowing yards and delivering papers. Wife cooked and cleaned and they seldom went out top eat.

All in the Family: Dad had a union job on the loading docks. To help make ends meet he drove a cab some evenings and weekends. They lived in a older 2 bedroom bungalo, didn't own a car and the wife cooked cleaned and made some of her husbands cloths. Eating out was a special occassion and Archie had a cigar while watching the game or the fight. They had one TV and vacations were visits to relatives. They'd probably be on food stamps too.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

20-30-40 years ago the above were solid working class people as defined by the era. Today people living the same way would looked down as lower middle class scratching to get by.

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VADAVE

01-11-2007 09:00:26




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Yes Dave you are upper middle class. Definition of middle class is flexible. I looked up the demographics for a couple of counties that I know of. Richmond County in Va and Whitley County in In Kinda diverse and why did I pick them--well in-laws in one and my farm in the other. What I found interesting was the counties are about the same size in population and the average income is about $25K +/- with the household income average about 30K+. You live in a county like that with 100K income you are upper class.
Live in Fairfax County Va--just outside Washington DC--with average household income of 90K and average single family homes cost 400K+ and you are just middle class. Actually you would have a hard time buying a house. Here the garbage man (oops Waste Disposal Engineer) can't afford to live in the county that hires him.
What's my definition of middle class--you make about the median for your area and live a life that is average for the area.

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Brokenwrench

01-11-2007 07:31:26




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
I`ve started replying to this twice already.
Just didn`t know if my opinion added any value to the conversation. What the heck.
My wife and I live in rural MN, have three small kids, and a small farm(horses). I am self employed, my wife is a stay at home mom who does do some subbing at the local elem school.
I agree totally with alot of the insights people have already offered. It`s all about choices.
I chose to move back home, we chose for my wife to stay at home, we chose to live in the country.

Yeah, things are tight, but my wife could go full time, or we could move to a different area.
I know I could make better money, and actually get benefits if I wanted to make those sacrifices. What would we gain? Back to the root of what brings us all to this sight, I love old tractors, scratchin around in the dirt, and enjoying the time we have with our kids who are already growing up way too fast.
I feel we also choose how much debt we get into, the problem is this is a "want" driven society.
It`s amazing the difference between what we want and what we need.
Instead of the new house with all the latest stuff, we made the decision to live where we do so we could enjoy the things we love. I have five horses, the most I paid for one is $900 dollars. The hours of fun we have riding with our kids, I wouldn`t trade for all the new toys in the world.
I know if things get financially tough, we`re responsible for straightening it out. If the extras gotta go, they gotta go. The thing is to not hold on too tightly to the posessions. Theres always something alittle better out there. It`s a tough lesson to learn, but look at how the older generations lived, it is possible to live like that, but not if you get way in debt. Just my two cents

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Kestrel in CT

01-11-2007 07:31:16




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
I also have never understood how so many people have new cars, new homes, and buying things I would never buy until I had the cash.

But now in my advancing age I think I know the answer. From the time we are born to the time we die, we are marketed to death. Whatever you do, wherever you go, whatever you read or watch on TV- bammo...there's an ad or dumb commercial hitting you in the face. There's too many people trying to sell us all too much junk.

Even the conservative Wall Street Journal has been running full page color ads for Stihl chainsaws. So yachts and mansions aren't enough anymore ?

Throw all this media brainwashing in with a little human greed and lack of restraint and wala....a " poor middle class" is created.

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jdemaris

01-11-2007 06:25:07




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Much of these labels are just relative terms. The "poorest" in this country live way above the perceived "middle class" in other countries.
My wife and I barely make 50K total per year. That is our choice and it's for two reasons. My wife runs an 1800s living-history museum and likes what she does - that means more to her than getting a career that she'd hate. She's got a PHd and could get a job tomorrow that pays four times what she makes now - but we'd be miserable. And me? I worked two-jobs, night and day for 30 years - and until recently, all my kids were grown and gone and making grandkids. Now - I've got a new three-year-old and I opted to stay home with him. That doesn't really mean we're home all the time - but it does mean he is with me all the time. So, I cut back on outside work a lot. This is all by personal choice - we are not "victims." I heard recently on a financial "call-in" radio show - Bob Brinker to be exact. A guy called in, he and his wife are in their 20s, joint income of 120K per year and he was whining they can't get out of debt or save a down-payment for a house.
I find that hard to accept. Too many people want everything now. When they go broke - it's the government's fault. My wife and I don't owe one penny to anything or anybody and have been that way for 20 years. Bought one new car in my life - in 1970 and will never do it again. Never had a car payment and mortgage was paid off long ago. We own four large rural properies scattered around New York State - all together a little over 600 acres - and our biggest expense-fear is taxes. We fend for ourselves - never hired a contractor or repairmen in my life to have anything done. Built two houses, built many barns. Fix our own cars, trucks, tractors. My wife makes most of her own clothes. We have never paid a cent for day-care - which is another issue. If someone wants to have kids - then be willing to take care of them - and pay for them. Don't order the taxpayers to take care of your kids. Back to my complaints - we find it more difficult to live the way we want. That because of the whiners constantly asking government to pick up the slack - where they screw up. So, we sit back - do for ourselves - and spend money carefully. At the same time - the government forcibly takes more from us and gives it away to those who choose to spend money like idiots. And yeah - I am generalizing here. There are some people caught in a bind that HAVE worked hard. But in this country - they are in the minority. And also - I keep blaming the magical entitity known as "government" for things. I am fully aware that this "government" is just a bunch or people - no smarter or dumber than the rest of us. Heck, it is "us." But - they have the legal authority to force their collective will on us. Approach me on the street and take my wallet and you can be arrested. Pass a law and do it - and then it's all fine.

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M Nut

01-11-2007 06:14:15




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Boy Dave, you are sure doing things right. Many more need to follow your example. However, I know very few people in central MN who are making $100,000 a year combined income who live in rural MN. In larger towns and surrounding areas of St. Cloud and Twin Cites, yes. Outstate MN, no. Most I know are much closer to 50-60,000. I grew up in a home where $25,000 was the yearly income (in the 80's) and we made it just fine. I guess it all depends on spending habits. My farm accountant told me an interesting thing a few years ago. He said 90% of the people he serves are broke. Some just at different levels than others. He seemed to think that with many people, the more money they had, the more the borrowed beyond the capacity of their ability to pay.

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Dave from MN

01-11-2007 06:55:22




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to M Nut, 01-11-2007 06:14:15  
Nice to see what people say here. Good people here. I grew up with a 1 income household. Barely over 15,000/year in the early 80's. I am 36v years old. Bought this farm from a neighbor. Was able to get the loan due to the fact that I was making about $100,000 year the previous 2 years,but I was promoted to that position from a general production emplyee over the course of about 10 years. It was difficult for me as I never graduated high school. I was one that thought I could get by working hard, so I would take off school whenever there was a job during the week, that I could make cash. Well, I missed more that 8 days in a semester and with grades ranging from a's -f's, i lost all my credits for that year, it was school policy, it was my senior year. I dropped out. I worked different jobs making what I thought was good enough. I lost touch with old freinds from school because of my shame of quiting. At 22 my girlfreind got pregnant and I started a job in a factory. At 24 our relationship soured and a few months later I found my self fighting for custody, I was driving a $200 chevy citation, had $200 in savings and was 1 month behind on rent, and she came to live with me. I decided my daughter needed a good life and even better examples of how to live. So I never missed work for any reason other than her health. I tryed to be the best I could and over 10 years went from GP to maint to supervision to management eventually running 50% of the plant, then resigned. I now have this place, a awesome wife, 3 great kids. I never realy let anyone know about no diploma, only my HR person knew. I still dont have one, too ashamed and embarressed to go back and get it. I have worked hard for what I have and really need to instill education and investing in your future to my kids. I was fortunate as a high school drop out to survive, but I am an exception to the norm. Keep your kids in school and teach them that having everything is not all that important. Spoiling them will only make it harder if they are in a pickle like I was, growing up poor and not having what all my freinds did allowed me to climb out a hole.

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M Nut

01-12-2007 18:39:18




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 06:55:22  
Great post. I applaud you and your efforts. Work ethics like yours are hard to find in today's world. I know. I am a public school teacher, and trust me, if I could change anything that I knew would make a huge difference in the next generation, it would be to instill a good work ethic. Most simply don't care anymore, and why should they? If the don't succeed in today's world, there are people like you and I who will be left footing their bill. If they don't want to work, they don't have to. And that is the bottom line. In a perfect world, you don't work, you don't eat. Now don't get me wrong, I know things happen where assistance is needed, and I'm all for it. Just not for paying someone's way because they are lazy.

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steve from mo - dangit!

01-11-2007 06:11:05




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 Just a political gimmick. in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
It's where the votes are, and the politicians are trying to see who can pander the most/best.



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Brian in NY

01-11-2007 06:10:20




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Well, a 100k combined income is not middle class.
75k combined is upper middle class.
Middle class is anyone living above the poverty line up to the breakoff for upper class.
I believe the poverty line is 26k, but it varies based on how many people are in your family, and where you live.
You have heard of the working poor. What that involves is two people working, both making decent wage but saddled with college loan debt, a mortgage(often not anything more than a modest home), and costs associated with raising children, etc.....and just barely making ends meet at the end of the month, or maybe even using credit cards to pay other bills...basically just digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole.
Could the average person spend a little less? Maybe....but there has to be some reward for working hard....I don't begrudge anyone from spending a little money on themselves to make their lives enjoyable. The average middle class American has a job that they don't enjoy, work for a boss who is an idiot, and just needs some kind of release. Listen to the country music on the radio...Country music is gaining popularity because it is the anthem of the working stiff. Personally, I am smack in the middle of middle class. Wife and I make between 55 and 60k per year together. We live comfortably, have some debt, but is manageable.

We live in a modest house, I drive a 8 year old truck, she has a new SUV--but we bought it the right way and have equity in it already. I have toys, but I get by with older things so I don't have to be held hostage by a payment. Yes I could pay off my mortgage earlier but I owe a very modest amount on the property already, have a low interest rate and my money is better leveraged elsewhere. I think life is too short to just save, save, save and wait for the day you have no debt to have some fun. I could die tommorrow and what good would it do to be out of debt but bitter because I never got to enjoy life?
Yes I am thinking of my kids...I don't do anything if I can't include them in it. They love snowmobiling, riding fourwheeler, etc. I have an very good life insurance policy so that my debt will be erased if I die and there will still be some $ left for them.

Just my opinion, and all are entitled to their own. Just seems that if one has more money than they really need, it becomes much easier to pass judgement on those whose belt is a little tighter.

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1936

01-11-2007 06:02:14




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Easy credit and plastic is at the top of the list. Where in the american education system was I shown how to manage $$$$$$$? Pay your self first every pay day. In the past couple weeks in each of your lives would you have been able to pay in hard dollars not plastic what you bought? Would or could you been able to pay for the items is not the issue for most. It sort of like flash your cash and some how in the end they believe all will be resolved. Most will live well beyond the $$$ in hand. The food pantrys are swamped in this area and not all with young familys. The homeless who are provided and meal and bed at the the churches just move to the next church for the next nights bed. Some have job, but able to pay the cost to rent so they live on the street and use public assistance. You are taxed each year on interest earned and taxed on the money you saved to earn interest. Retirement life is no less expensive that the working years.

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Badly Bent

01-11-2007 05:44:17




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Middle class is probably going to be defined as somewhere between $25,000 and $75,000. I agree with most other comments here. We buy too much, waste too much and save too little in our country. I am biased, and I admit the bias up front, but I think most of those who are below middle-class incomes are people who have no skills and/or training, no work ethic, or other problems that keep them from working. Sometimes these problems are real health problems, but often they self-induced. I'm with those of you who wonder how all of these new cars and houses can be afforded. I still haven't figured that one out yet...

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JOB

01-11-2007 05:33:25




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Dave you are not a middle class American. If it is still true the people earning $100,000 a year or more is in the upper 5% in the income bracket. You have a more sensible life style. What ever you did you did something right. Good luck To ya



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Sloroll

01-11-2007 05:15:27




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
I, like you are amazed. I drive by the highschool and there are very few cars in that parking lot older than mine. 3/4 of the homes in town are newer and nicer than what I have. My wife and I both work. We have no children. I would say we are in simmilar situation financially. My wife is a proffessional and I am self employed. I don't have a clue how people have what they have and sleep at night worried about the debt load. Heck fire, mine scares the begeeses out of me and I know it can't be what these others have. Anyway, Work hard, be happy and tick off your congressman.

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Badly Bent

01-11-2007 05:45:51




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Sloroll, 01-11-2007 05:15:27  
I'll agree totally. I drive a 9 year old vehicle and live in a modest home. I think my wife and I have to be about average, maybe slightly above, in terms of income. Yet I see kids at school driving BMW's and new Nissans/Hondas. I'm amazed.



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HENRY E NC

01-11-2007 05:14:38




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to Dave from MN, 01-11-2007 05:04:21  
Well said. This country is drifting into a morass we will not be able to get out of. Greed has overtaken most americans. Everyone has to have two homes, a motorhome boat motorcyle ATV and snowmobiles. I personally want more red tractors. However being retired on a fixed income keeps me from having too many tractors so I think yhe Government should give me some since its their fault I didn't save more money along the way. Personally, you are right on.

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Tom43

01-11-2007 07:28:58




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 Re: OT : what is middle class poverty? in reply to HENRY E NC, 01-11-2007 05:14:38  
Please be kind enough to put this "stuff" on the political forum where it belongs. This is a tractor forum.



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