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ih down the tubes again

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ex farmall guy

01-22-2007 16:37:37

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heard last week case-ih is going down again. agco could be taking them over. cat may take over agco.

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colekicker

01-22-2007 23:22:11

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

Rumor. AGCO CEO Martin Richenhagen made a statement to the Financial Times Deutschland that was blown out of proportion to raise their stock price.
1. AGCO doesn't have the money.
2. Anti-trust wouldn't let it happen.

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730virgil

01-22-2007 21:20:20

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

a friend of mine just bought a deere chore tractor . local dealer told him that size case ih is coming from england and don't have anyone that could work on them ? maybe dealer is worried that he might not be a dealer much longer or be able to get parts for tractor

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colekicker

01-22-2007 23:12:07

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to 730virgil, 01-22-2007 21:20:20

If he got a Maxxum series, it is coming out of England. Large volume of these tractors are produced and parts availability should not be an issue.

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Cliff Neubauer

01-22-2007 19:36:46

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

That rumor has been going around for a few weeks now but I don't believe it. If Agco did buy one of them they would probably have to drop most of it's products for the government to approve the merger and Agco really wouldn't gain anything but eliminating some competition.

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Turke Bros. Farms

01-22-2007 19:07:35

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

What a disapointment to say the least! I thought that the new McCormick would do it and they were going to bring back the Farmall name plate, if I read right...Sad.

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colekicker

01-22-2007 23:14:35

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to Turke Bros. Farms, 01-22-2007 19:07:35

McCormick is just a name. ARGO Group is the company that purchased the Doncaster, England plant where Case IH tractors were produced. ARGO Group also owns Landini. Not much new engineering coming from them. Just switching engines.
Farmall is Case IH.

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c hess

01-22-2007 18:27:40

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

Case just hired 3 Agrico folks a few weeks ago. You can read on the CNH website. Dont seem like that would have happened if above roumor is true,

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c hess

01-22-2007 18:23:11

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

case just hired 3 agrico top dogs a couple weeks ago. It is on cnh site.

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kyhayman

01-22-2007 18:10:09

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

I'm sure Fiat would love to unload Case-IH or New Holland with all the debt they are carrying on them. I took a couple of good beatings on CNH stock when they did a reverse split a few years ago. Not sure if that deal would pass the anti trust regulators here and in the EU or not to let Agco pick up another line.

As to Cat and Agco, unless Cat changes corporate leadership I cant see that one happening. Cat got the best deal there is when they sold their Challenger line to Agco, kept the paper on the deal, and then sell engines (through their Perkins subsidiary) and drivetrains back to Agco. Cat found out that the ag equipment business wasnt all its cracked up to be just a few years ago, and went back to focusing on what they do best.

But I could be all wet...

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James2

01-23-2007 08:50:05

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to kyhayman, 01-22-2007 18:10:09

Cat took a severe shellacking when they sold Challenger. Spent 250 million on the 700-800 series design and sold the whole thing including the plant for 20 million and a few shares of Agco stock. Doesn't include the vast millions of dollars spent developing the original concept and releasing the original models. Cat finally realized that this was a losing proposition and best to get out before throwing away any more money. However they did make a run at buying CIH before Fiat bought them, knew they had to get bigger or get out. They were just a little too tight fisted.

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kyhayman

01-22-2007 20:16:50

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to kyhayman, 01-22-2007 18:10:09

My understanding is Fiat, who owned New Holland bought CaseIH and merged them into the new agricultural company CNH. That left Fiat as the majority shareholder in the new conglomerate. Then, a few years ago, 2003/4 or so, CNH needed a bailout. Fiat bought up a load of commercial paper from CNH to keep there corporate debt from becomming junk bond status.

This is from CNH's web site CNH Global N.V. (?CNH?) is a Dutch corporation, controlled by Fiat S.p.A. (?Fiat?), and is listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Although CNH is a ?foreign private issuer? under US securities laws, insider trading laws are enforceable against CNH and its subsidiaries (collectively, the ?Company?) and their Directors, Officers and Employees.

As deeply embedded as CaseIH parts division is in the CNH global supply chain I'm sure hoping that they dont end up selling them off. Profitability-wise I think you are dead on about the Case ag division. Its a huge drain on CNH. There yellow construction line is their strenght and one of the few reasons I see them holding the brand. Now (OMG, David's crystal ball working here) what I see as a logical progresion is CNH dropping the Case ag line, and the New Holland yellow line to streamline the company and focus on strengths.

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c hess

01-23-2007 06:48:18

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to kyhayman, 01-22-2007 20:16:50

Ithink if you keep going on the web site you will find cnh no longer owes fiat anything. They did in years you mentioned but if i red adobie statement they no longer owe an in fact are in plus side. So tonight i will read agro site ,might find something interesting!

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kyhayman

01-23-2007 18:32:52

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to c hess, 01-23-2007 06:48:18

You are correct, I missed that they had converted the commerical paper to stock. This increased Fiat's shares of CNH stock to 84% of shares outstanding. I'm not sure where they sit now in terms of total shares owned.

As to short term and intermediate term paper, I havent seen the 4th quarter reports yet. 3rd quarter I got this out of marketwatch.com financials.

NET DEBT AND OPERATING CASH FLOW Equipment Operations Net Debt (defined as total debt less cash and cash equivalents, deposits in Fiat affiliates cash management pools and intersegment notes receivables) was $378 million on September 30, 2006, compared to $137 million at June 30, 2006, $719 million at December 31, 2005 and $839 million at September 30, 2005. Net debt to net capitalization was 6.6% at September 30, 2006, down from 12.5% at December 31, 2005. As of September 30, 2006, CNH had 235.9 million common shares outstanding.

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Doug in IL

01-22-2007 23:01:15

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to kyhayman, 01-22-2007 20:16:50

Thanks for that explaination! I wasn't sure exactly how that CNH deal went.

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colekicker

01-22-2007 23:10:18

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to Doug in IL, 01-22-2007 19:59:48

Deeres rotary combine is a joke. Really take a hard look at their combines. There is not frame size difference or rotar size difference. They just change engine hp. They do the same thing with their 4wd. Deere is running off the name. If they weren't selling t-shirts and lawn mowers, where would they really be? What was the last truly innovative product they came up with and didn't copy?

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Don Wadge

01-22-2007 16:53:16

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Re: ih down the tubes again in reply to ex farmall guy, 01-22-2007 16:37:37

Well, I think it's a rumour. Their stock price still looks pretty good. But the way corporations change hands these days who knows who's selling and who's buying or rolling it into other holdings.

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