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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

restoration vs paint job

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Heyseed

04-14-2007 17:47:52




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I am wondering what counts as a restoration of an old tractor as opposed to a new coat of paint and a tune up. where is the tipping point?




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the tractor vet

04-15-2007 09:15:51




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
Well it is up to each here , I have been fixen up junk since 1969 for my owen use and for 20 years for people to buy and use painted more tractors then one person should have over the years . My pride and joy is my 54 Farmall S/MTA thati am the second owner that was bought on june 27 1990 at a large dealer only auction that was as rough as a cob but it did run and start on it's owen and the T/A worked and two of the three lites worked tires were junk had a rough old loader with a blade that had more weld then org. steel and pig poop all over it crusted on and not one brake and leaks all over it . Was bought to be my second tractor and planting tractor . The ft, grill as destroyed to the point that i figured that i would have to find a used one that was like tryen to find HENS teeth . A week in the shop and all mechanical issues were fixed and i turned it over to my buddy for the paint work a twelve pack and 6 hours mybuddy with his ELIF hammer and the grill was like new . five hours with the hot water pressure washer two days scrapen and sanding the chassie was ready another 12 pack and it was red the next weekend the sheet metal was done and on the tractor . The next weekend it was in the field balen hay . four years later it was at the red power round up and of the 54 1954 S/MTA's there it was one of the two choosen for the video . At that show there were 7 tractors that were painted by my buddy that were painted with the Case I h 2150 red and all of them were painted with the 2150 so here it is all in what ya want to spend and are you going to use it for what it was ment to be used for or are ya going to fix it up and hide it in a heated garage and only bring it out on sunny days and look at it . Now granted after 17 years of sun wind rain dust dirt grease gun nicks branches getting on and off it fuel spills gasket seepage she is now starten to look she has been used and maybe in ten more years i may have to paint her again.

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heyseed

04-16-2007 19:20:52




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to the tractor vet, 04-15-2007 09:15:51  

Thanks TT-Vet this is a working tractor. It does get used, I am just getting ready for that ten year paint job.



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Nebraska Cowman

04-15-2007 03:45:57




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
Any time you take a non-running tractor and put it back into service it has been "restored" So, the question is; is it restored to factory new, or restored to working condition? Lots of room there. But to take a running tractor and paint it as-is I don't think most people would consider "restored" But then again, it's your tractor. There are no written rules.



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heyseed

04-14-2007 22:26:31




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
Thanks for all the opinions, the answer is basically what I thought. So my good running nice condition IH-424 will be getting fixed up, not restored. I am replacing all the belts and hoses, fixing some wiring issues and sealing any leaks before giving it a new coat of IH red.I do agree that clearcoat paint looks out of place on these older units so it will be TSC for me. BTW anyone have a lead on engine skirts for a 1967 424?

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Mike M

04-15-2007 05:18:04




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to heyseed, 04-14-2007 22:26:31  
I don't like the look of clear coat on a tractor either. And you might want to get something better than TSC paint ?



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135 Fan

04-14-2007 21:45:58




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
I think just like cars, there are different levels of restoration. A lot of times a problem component can be replaced with a much better one than the original. Cars have frame-off or rotiserie restorations or just mostly cosmetic if the rest of the car is in really good shape to begin with. Why rebuild a low mileage or low hour engine? I guess it all depends if you want a trailer queen for show or a good working machine you can put to work. Dave

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dds-inc

04-14-2007 19:43:51




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
simply put:

PAINT SELLS. People paint tractors right over everything so that they can get an easy 500 bucks profit.

IF A TRACTOR WAS PERFECTLY restored cosmetically and mechanically, CHANCES are you WILL NOT get your money out of it because most of the people today are too darn cheap and THEREFORE, buy a paint job tractor!!!



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Bodon

04-14-2007 19:27:47




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
Good question. I would say if you're replacing all the wearable parts and returning the machine to it's "factory" condition, then it's a restoration. Although, there are degrees of restoration (I wouldn't count a paint job & a tune up a restoration). Case in point - I cracked the outside water jacket (block) last Christmas day - if you looked in my garage today, you would see a skeleton of a tractor - no seat, wheels, etc. Just the hydraulic unit, transmission, and partial engine (a small repair gone awry). By the way - I got a lot of advice to try JB Weld to repair the crack in my block - we'll see how that turns out. What started out as a simple repair has turned into a (almost) full blown restoration project - and boy does it get expensive. However, I'm also going to work it too - that's what I bought it for in the first place. Since I didn't just want a tractor for show, I decided to try and fix the block & repair the main wearable items - going through all the systems (steering box,linkages, bearings etc., hydraulics, transmission, fuel/oil, electrical, etc.. Even if I don't replace everything - it's nice knowing exactly what condition those systems are in. Good luck with whatever you're working on!

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Mike M

04-15-2007 05:15:52




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Bodon, 04-14-2007 19:27:47  
I'd say NO to the JB weld on a block because I tried it once on a JD 40 where the side of the block is usually cracked at the water jacket area behind the carb. All was well UNTIL I actually did something with the tractor and got it warmed up. JB weld does not expand and contract like that cast iron will do.



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Bodon

04-15-2007 11:03:51




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Mike M, 04-15-2007 05:15:52  
Thanks for the input Mike,
Maybe I should go ahead and take it to a welding shop and get it welded. I asked the owner of a local welding shop, and he said he uses nickel to weld those old cast blocks. He told me he prefers to just get the block in to weld on - he says he sets them on some sorm of heater to get the entire block uniformerly heated before welding. He also told me that sometimes, even after they are nickel welded, they can still seep. He said sometimes you just have to run them until the cracks get filled up with with dirt or sealer before the seeping will completely stop. The guy has been in business for 35 years, so I guess he know what he is talking about. But I've heard just about as many good things about JB Weld as I have bad things. So I went the cheap route first. I think what I will do is get the tractor running again without all the body parts, etc. on it before I paint - and let it run for a good long while just to see what happens. You are probably right though. Do you know if a smaller (100A, 1 phase) mig welder would be capeable of welding the crack?

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Mike M

04-16-2007 06:11:37




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Bodon, 04-15-2007 11:03:51  
Sounds like that guy knows what he's doing. Those welds do still have little cracks left in them that can seep. A local welder by me after welding tins the area and applys solder over it.You might mention this to him ? This makes it stand out ,but it sure does seal them up. I had a couple of JD 2cyl. blocks done by him with good results and where the owner didn't care about looks.



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bodon

04-16-2007 18:00:57




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Mike M, 04-16-2007 06:11:37  
I will mention it to him. Yeah, if it stands out a little more doesn't matter to me as long as it keeps the coolant in. Thanks!



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RodInNS

04-15-2007 19:10:23




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Bodon, 04-15-2007 11:03:51  
I don't think I'd try that with a mig welder. You want to use Ni-rod. Sodel 35 is a common one I use on cast.
The most critical part of welding cast is controling the rate of heating and cooling. That's why the parts need to be pre-heated, held at that temperature, welded, and then allowed to slowly cool. If it isn't controled, it's just going to split somewhere else as soon as it cools.
I've never welded a block myself, but a leaky weld sounds funny to me. Of the welds that I have done on cast, I've machined some afterwards, and they were all tight if they were done right. They shouldn't be porous or leak....

Rod

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RodInNS

04-14-2007 19:09:22




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
I dunno.
I like to think that if you're going to restore something, then you keep it original, and use OEM NOS parts. It needs to be period correct. I don't necessairly think that it needs to be entirely torn down and repaired to "new" specs, just good working order.
Returning something to "as new" specs to me would be called remanufacturing... and with that you can do as you wish, alter, upgrade, etc. That's not calling it restored.
In the end, you do whatever makes you happy. If somebody's going to crap about that, they've got too much time on their hands.

Rod

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old

04-14-2007 18:26:37




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
To me and I guess I'm one from the old school a restore means takeing it all apart and replaceing every thing thats not with in specs. Now me I don't restore them I fix them up to look good and run well but I never claim that I restore one



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Rimshot

04-14-2007 18:13:59




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
That's a good question. I've wondered that myself. I feel that if it is advertised as being restored then to me that means everything has been rebuilt and should work perfectly. That also means new tires unless it has really good originals. I get really frustrated with these guys that spend a bunch of money on paint and then can't tell you if the engine has been overhauled. They say it doesn't smoke. Also the tires are 50% with alittle cracking--what a joke. The real kicker are the guys that get their neighbors to stand on each side of the tractor and spray it with aerosol cans while he drives it past them---then he calls it restored. Good luck on getting an answer--I'm sure I'm going to get an ear-full for my opinion!

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rrlund

04-14-2007 18:09:31




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
Boy,this is going to get things going. To me,things like putting an alternator on a tractor that was 6 volt,missing parts,wrong knobs and guages,dents,major welds instead of replacing broken parts,wrong color paint or wrong paint scheme,wrong decals,would all disqualify it as a restoration. If you really want to get picky,and I wish this hadn't been pointed out to me,but to a purist,even the wrong hose clamps throws it off. I've seen some beautiful restorations where I couldn't take my eyes off the screw type clamps where they should have been wire type. I'll have that stuck in everybodys head now won't I?

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Mike M

04-15-2007 05:10:24




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to rrlund, 04-14-2007 18:09:31  
UH ! Wire type clamps I HATE those things !! I guess I have just fought with too many of them to get stuff apart. And a plus for the hex headed worm drive is that you can get at them to tighten them up in really close quarters with a 1/4" drive set.



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Janicholson

04-14-2007 18:22:12




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to rrlund, 04-14-2007 18:09:31  
I like you construct for the difference. If a person cannot find NOS, and no great used part is available (rare componet) a fabricated part, or a good repo may be the only answer. If the effort is made, the machine is as original as possible, and the paper work is there, it is a restoration. Car folks have no bones about what is restored and what is not. JimN



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MF Poor

04-14-2007 18:08:35




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 Re: restoration vs paint job in reply to Heyseed, 04-14-2007 17:47:52  
Sorta like askin' the difference between a pond and a lake. Answer is, whatever floats yer boat.

To me personally, restoration means taking things to extremes to get as close to original as is conceivably possible using original parts and NO aftermarket "wannabe" parts. The next guy might call a resoration a bucket and brush paint job.



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Maine Fordson

04-14-2007 19:49:23




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 Re: DuPont Restorations in reply to MF Poor, 04-14-2007 18:08:35  
I think we've all seen a "DuPont restoration" before, and for my money, that just doesn't cut it. A paint job does not a restored tractor make; just a re-painted one.

My definition of a restoration includes an engine rebuild (rings/bearings/valves etc., sleeves if applicable), all drive train parts up to spec (with new bearings/tight linkages, new clutch/brake linings etc.) so that the mechanical condition is as close as possible to what it was when it left the factory. Tires, well, at $400+ per tire, I'm willing to overlook a tire that's less than 100%, but 20% is obviously a no-go. (Actually, I prefer steel wheels anyway!)

Obviously, parts for some of the rarer tractors (the kind you see in Antique Power magazine that were made in small numbers and more than 90 years ago) can't be found, so repro and "make-do" parts are the only option, unless you want to leave a pile of rusty parts slowly sinking into the ground, and that's not really an option anyway.

Bottom line for me: If it ain't re-built as described above, it's not restored!

My 2¢ worth; your mileage may vary.

-- Maine Fordson

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ldj

04-14-2007 20:21:39




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 Re: DuPont Restorations in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-14-2007 19:49:23  
Talking about a DuPont restoration. Well there sits a nice tractor that has truly been rebuilt, right and perfect in every way---except that wet look DuPont paint that nothing back then had. Would it had been better not to use that expensive paint and use $20.00 tsc paint? Well to each his own.



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MSD

04-14-2007 23:42:20




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 Re: DuPont Restorations in reply to ldj, 04-14-2007 20:21:39  
Good grieve, TSC paint. At least go to the dealer and buy their paint. A few bucks extra but at least it's decent paint that will last more than a year in the sun.



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