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Farmer feild perimiter rights

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Dave from MN

11-21-2007 04:55:47

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My dad came home the other day to the sound of a chain saw in his woods. When he went out he discovered the farmer, whom he has known for 40 years, cutting up a huge red oak that he had dropped, because he claimed a branch interfiered with his equipment. Well, dad has been walking this woodline for the past few years and always cuts down any branches that hang over into the feild and may cause a problem, to be nice. Dad asked him why he didnt try and cutdown the popples which actually would have been , if any, trees would be in the way. Well the farmer grumbled about the shade from the tree. Well, every year he plows as close to the woodline as possible, even sprayed the woodline edge with tree killer one year. By property lines dad owns a good 15-25 feet into the feild to begin with. This guy also was cutting up the tree as firewood peices, tossing them in his truck, and tossing the brush in the woods. He has been doing this off and on for 20 years, and dad has talked to him before, this time he just told him to get the he!! out of there. 1. I think he is after the big live oaks so the sun shines on the feild, cause he is always an early sower and the woods is on the south side of the feild, 2. he likes to give the wood( my dads wood actually) to his son. Dad wants to know what he should do. I told him after all these years of telling him, if he wants to to farm to the woods, pay rent on that acre or 3, otherwise stay on his side of the line. 2. send him a bill for that tree, When the road was expanded dad recieved $1500-$2000 per live large oak tree that was removed, that is what the appraiser valued them at. So what is a farmers rights on land edges like this, and being farmers and landowners what would you all do.

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Bill(Wis)

11-21-2007 18:15:13

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

In Wisconsin, if someone cuts a tree on your property without your permission, you can charge him 3 times the market value of the tree. Problem is, it's hard to prove what "market value" might be. In the case of red oak, there is absolutely no market value for red oak lumber. No one wants it. No one buys it for lumber. Firewood is all it's good for. That would be whatever the local market is times three.

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Spook

11-21-2007 18:08:56

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

I had my property surveyed, and fenced some of it. I now mow around some of the perimeter, and put up posts to mark the corners. And I have great neighbors.

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parrothead

11-21-2007 14:01:20

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

We had this happen a few years ago. As I was sitting in my deer stand on opening day, I hear the sound of chain saws and a bulldozer in the distance. A couple of hours later, I get down to investigate 'cause the saws are getting pretty close and my hunting was shot for that day as a result. I walked through the woods and find these moron loggers, who were hired by the idiot who rents the property, sawing down 60+ year old walnut trees that were planted by my grandpa when he was serving as the first county agent in our state. Needless to say, I was smoked! These idiots "accidentally" ran over the survey posts with a log skidder to get to these trees. It took 2 years and a bunch of lawyer $, but we settled up with the landowner by moving over the property line about 100' with that landowner paying for the expensive half of a new 6 wire fence.

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deano

11-21-2007 13:28:03

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Survey and fence it. Good fences make good neighbors

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wilsonfire

11-21-2007 13:12:34

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

No one has discussed this point. Here where I live (Oklahoma) if fence is in place for seven or more years it doesn't matter if it's on the property line, crooked or whatever. It must stay as is if one party wants it. I found this out when rebuilding fences that had been tacked to trees many years ago. After buying back the home place adjacent land owner went nuts when I refenced by the (old survey) stakes. New survey confirmed it was fine but legally the fence had to stay where it was.

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havvey

11-21-2007 12:57:28

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

I would call the police, forestry or what agencey your state has, get it on record then persue legal action like a letter ordering him to stay off and not farm the field. You could sue for damages as said for the trees etc.

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135 Fan

11-21-2007 11:15:18

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Whether there was a fence or not, he came onto your land and he knows it. He did it without your permission and cut down your tree. That should be trespassing and vandalism (for lack of a better term). Up here all land has survey stakes pounded in the property corners for at least every 1/2 mile. All other property bounderies are found from measuring off the survey stakes. In some cases there have been exceptions to property bounderies but since it is only along the edge of a field, he has no right to cut your trees down on your side of the property. I'm sure he made money when he sold the land in the first place. Dave

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Nolan

11-21-2007 11:08:22

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

So the neighbor farms your dads land for free, and perhaps without permission (wasn't clear). This neighbor feels entitled to trespass onto your dads land, cutting down excellent trees for firewood for himself.

What exactly was the question?

I'm pretty casual myself, and will let a lot slide just to stay peacefull. This is way over that line in my opinion. You're outa here! And here's the bill for the damages you've done. Don't ever come back.

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flying belgian

11-21-2007 10:47:08

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Keep him out of there at all cost. If he would have gotten hurt cutting that tree on your prop. you would have been liable for his med. bills. And that my friend can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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sammy the RED

11-21-2007 10:00:21

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Line fence needs to be built. third party image

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mjbrown

11-21-2007 09:37:50

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

I don't know about your state but in NY if he cut a valuable tree on your property without your permission he is liable for triple indemnity for your loss. A big oak is worth a lot of money. You are entitled to three times it's value from the cutter (in NY). Call a state forester and get an opinion of value then the police. If you put up a fence ON the property line you can send him a bill for half the cost of the fence (in NY).
A big oak up here is worth $800-$1000 the last I knew depending on if there is wire in it etc. Multiply that times three!

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VADAVE

11-21-2007 09:09:36

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

OK I'll throw in my 2 cents. In VA you can cut what hangs over THAT'S ALL. I usually allow fudging some but it doesn't extend to cutting large trees. When I had my woods select cut (means the lumberman only got trees of a certain size) the agreement was that if they cut any unauthorized trees the bill was 3 times the value of the tree based on the size of the stump.
So in your case first you must re-establish the property line. Since the farmer sold it to you, I don't care how long ago, he knows where the line is.
Next provide him with a bill for the tree he cut down, figure it anyway you want.
Then if you want to re-establish a relationship with the farmer offer to discuss the situation.

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Walt Davies

11-21-2007 08:43:56

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

I bought 80 acres in Southern Oregon in 88 and it surveyed so i put up a fence to let the neighbors that it was my land not theirs to use they pleased.
One guy came out and want to know what I was doing since I was blocking off his shooting range. I told him to get off my land and stay off he did.
another neighbor had taken over about 3 acres of the corner cleaned it up into a nice park and even put their laundry room over the line onto my land.
the renter was really mad an wanted to know how she going to do her laundry I told her just move the Dam building onto her place. The owner called me up and let me know that it was his land because he used it for 20 years. I told him to get off my land. The next week the power was cut to the building and the washer and dryer was moved out. I guess when he talked to a lawyer he was told he had no rights to the land.

I would put up a good fence just 1 foot inside the property line and let the farmer know that he doesn't own it anymore and to keep on his side or pay for the tree he cut down. That usually wakes them up pretty good.
I don't believe in letting a neighbor take advantage of me, if they ask that's a different story but to just move in an take over NO WAY.
Walt

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John T Country Lawyer PS

11-21-2007 06:52:16

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Just an added quick note of warning about surveys and their legality as related to establishing property lines for the non surveyors and other lay persons here. A survey conducted by a licensed qualified land surveyor IS ONLY AN EXPERT OPINION of where he or she believes and marks the boundary lines based on deeds, legal descriptions, local records and landmarks etc etc. It takes a court order by a court of competent jurisdiction to establish a boundary if such disputes are litigated. In some states there are statutes whereby with proper NOTICE to the adjoining landowner a surveyor can be hired to render his opinion and mark a boundary and the other party has an opportunity to rebut the same and/or hire other professional opinions (and the court then settles the boundary) buttttt tttt if he does not object the lines as set can become judicually thereafter enforceable and a matter of record SUBJECT TO A STATUTE WHICH PERMITS SUCH

I just didnt want people to think when they hire a surveyor and he marks a line THATS LEGAL AND THE END ALL OF THE DISPUTE although it can certainly and/or eventually ripen into the same subject to the states other property law.

Note: Its IMPOSSIBLE to cover in a paragraph what entire law libraires and court cases are devoted to and it also varies state by state and is fact sensitive sooooo ooooo oooo if you have a question consult local counsel and dont bet one cent an anything you read in a paragraph here, regardless if professional or lay in nature..... ....

John T Attorney at Law

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rrlund

11-21-2007 07:23:02

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to John T Country Lawyer PS, 11-21-2007 06:52:16

That might all be true,but survey stakes will sure wake the offender up. I had to do that with a neighbor ten years or so ago. It shut him up and backed him out of my field.

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steve from mo - dangit!

11-21-2007 13:10:10

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to rrlund, 11-21-2007 07:23:02

I had problems with a couple neighbors and the city about who actually owned what and who was required to maintain what. I had the lot lines staked and was real obvious about taking pictures in case anyone thought of moving the stakes. I haven't heard anything from anyone since then.

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John T Country Lawyer

11-21-2007 12:27:59

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to rrlund, 11-21-2007 07:23:02

You raise a very good point, the average Joe isnt aware of survey and property law etc so when he sees those surveyor stakes he probably believes thats the boundary PERIOD n it may put the fear in him lol. Dont get me wrong, that may well be the "legal" boundary, it depends on where the surveyor started from and his accuracy and whats on record at the courthouse n county surveyors etc. etc. and in the vast majority of situations its probably correct and the exact same place it would turn out if it were litigated and a Court determined its location..... I was just trying to alert people there may well be more to it then where one expert (surveyor) says the boundary is..... . although again, its likely right on the money..... .. Given todays sophisticated n highly accurate (but expensive, ask a surveyor) electronics n lasers n GPS, given the same starting point, a ton of surveyors ought to end up in the exact same place wooooo o hooooo oo

Yall have a nice Thanksgiving

John T

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Stephen in SOKY

11-21-2007 06:11:11

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

I'd be concerned about adverse possesion as you mention in your post. Survey and fence the line immediately. If he's actually used it for forty years, it may be too late. Any GOOD neighbor will never object to determining/marking the actual line. Those you may lose as "Good" neighbors over this weren't worthy of the staus to begin with.

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JML755

11-21-2007 05:56:01

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Here in Michigan, you can cut any branches overhanging your property AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT ENDANGER THE HEALTH OF THE TREE. I agree with the "good fences make good neighbors". I'm in the process of fencing my 1100' property line. Couple of neighbors are not happy as they used to use the property as a playground. I had one neighbor dumping his grass clippings in the county drain on my property. Also found tracks from his tractor leading up to a freshly cut 14" diameter tree stump in my woods. Property stakes mean nothing to these people.
In your father's case, I'd put up stakes with surveyor's tape flags every 50 feet or so on the survey line to start. That will remind the neighbor of the legal boundary. If he persisted in trespassing, I'd put up a fence.

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JK-NY

11-21-2007 05:41:05

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

I would make darn sure I knew where the lines were. If they arent marked you may need to get a surveyor. Then I would make darn sure your neighbor knows where they are. If that tree was clearly on your land I would make him leave the wood and bring what he had on the truck back.If it was on the line I would let it go. I would try to not get too hostile about this as the neighbor may believe he owns up to the edge of the woods. If he is a good neighbor I would give him the benefit of the doubt.If you do own out into the field and this person becomes too hard to get along with you should keep him off your land alltogether or make him pay rent , just so he acknowledges your line. As mentioned he is within his rights to cut anything overhanging on his side of the line.

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dhermesc

11-21-2007 05:30:47

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Move the fence to the surveyed property line.

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maplehillfrm,pat

11-21-2007 05:26:53

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

well I know around here it goes that every other tree on a tree line would be yours,and visa versa,,, sounds like he could have just trimmed that tree so it wouldn't have hit the equiptment, we do it all the time,,,

the other thing is,, that your dad owns into the field, so letting this guy use it is just a nice jesture,, he shouldnt be on your dads tree line cutting your dads tree since it aint even his tree line anyway,,,,

I would say if talking wont solve anything,, the next thing is a fence on your line through the field,,, not sure what the legal actions could be for the tree removal,, I had a friend of mine cut some logs for another guy, supposedly the owner knew his line,, well apparantly he didnt,, and about 3 trees were cut on the adjoining property line,, they really werent that great of trees from what I undersdtood but,the other owner took them to court, [not my buddy the owner,, he assumed all responsibility which was his in the first place} , and I believe those 3 trees ended up costing like $5,000,

so now the neighbors dont even look at each other so there is a price to pay either way you go about it

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John T Country Lawyer

11-21-2007 05:22:01

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

Dave, That old proverb "good fences make good neighbors" sounds in order here, so the boundary line is clearly established and in the future whats on his side is his and on your side yours (extending vertically also) and to avoid any potential "adverse possession" boundary claims. As far as whats already transpired, that may be more trouble n expense then what its worth, thats your call.

John T

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IaGary

11-21-2007 05:10:49

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 04:55:47

The neighbor has the right to go straight up, cutting all branches that hang over the property line but not across the line onto your side of the line. I may string a wire to remind him of the line also.

I would tell him this is the law(In Iowa anyway) and if he cuts anymore he would receive a letter from a lawyer.Or he can buy the trees.

Let him know what the trees are worth for lumber.

Gary

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Dave from MN

11-21-2007 05:32:38

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to IaGary, 11-21-2007 05:10:49

Dad owns exactly 10 acres at this one site. He even bought the land from this farmer 40 years ago. The landowners on the south and the north always say the woods is my dads, but the "woods" only covers 6.5-7 acres. I told Pa if he doesnt get some line markers up, at least get it resurveyed and get the corners marked, then send the farmers, north and south, a conditional, seasonal usage slip if he would let them keep farming up the woodline, keep them from staking a claim of aquisition or whatever it's called.

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paul

11-21-2007 13:04:04

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to Dave from MN, 11-21-2007 05:32:38

For sure.

Adverse posession is a difficult thing, & 20 years in Minnesota - but I would _not_ let this go, the land can be taken by the neighbors if they have access to a cheap lawyer friend & get stubborn enough.

Fence or stakes on the property line. Period. Farmer has rights to keep the trees/brush back _vertical_ from that line.

If a year later your dad wants to allow farming, do it with paperwork as you said. But for a year, I'd leave it be with fence or stakes, to establish ownership.

It's difficult, there are always hard feelings.... Have a few issues of my own, treading softly, but at some point you gotta protect what is yours, and I think your dad needs to step up to the plate now.....

--->Paul

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rb/ct

11-21-2007 05:23:15

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Re: Farmer feild perimiter rights in reply to IaGary, 11-21-2007 05:10:49

It seems even with acreage, neighbors have to bother one another. This is obviously for money, firewood around CT is now 200 dollars a cord, and he is getting the maximum out of his field. He wont stop and it may be time for legal action. Nearby my land in PA, they removed a bunch of stone walls, maybe 500 ft. and palleted them and sold them. What a shame to the people who sweated and built them. It seems in the country, things are done for profit. This to pay the taxes and high cost of running a farm.

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