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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws

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jdemaris

12-28-2007 08:10:36




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I've read through several posts on these forums about using newer refrigerants, e.g. 134A on tractors and cars.

I also read several posts claiming it's illegal to buy the stuff unless certified. Last thread is at Tool Talk. Bob Huntress posted there - that it cannot be legally purchased without certification.

I disagree and have read through way too much EPA documents. I going to paste in a few pieces of it here, but I'm curious what some others on this forum think - or know about it.

As I understand it - it goes like this. The EPA has never banned the sale of 134A to anyone. They've considered it, but not acted on it.

They do prohibit the intentional release of it into the atmosphere - but the word "intentional" has been argued.

They do require that a " technician" be certified to install refrigerant. However, the definition of the word "technician" had been argued, and changed several times. Same with the word "refrigerant." It goes on and on.

Any legal document must have specific definitions for words used - otherwise it reverts to common, everyday useage and connotation.

As far as I can tell - a "technician" must meet certain legal requirements, but you don't have to be what the EPA calls a "technician", to work on your own equipment with certain classes of refrigerants.

If it sounds confusing, that's because it is - at least to me.

Anybody can legally buy 134A in most, and perhaps all states. There are some states looking to make their own laws - which I can't say I'm up on. No problem here in New York.

Here's some wording direct from the EPA. The endless paperwork is almost scary - since we're all paying for it.

September 28, 2006 and still current as of Dec, 2007
In the US, the Protocol is implemented by the Clean Air Act, and regulations issued under the
Act ended the production of CFC-12 for air conditioning and refrigeration uses on December
31, 1995.

CFC-12 (also known by the trade name Freon) was widely used in air conditioners for
automobiles and trucks for over 30 years. While new vehicles no longer use CFC-12, most
vehicles built before 1994 still require its use for servicing.

In 1994, EPA established the SNAP Program to review alternatives to ozone-depleting
substances like CFC-12. (Significant New Alternatives Policy). Under the SNAP program, the
motor vehicle air conditioning (MVAC) end-use includes all forms of air conditioning that
provide cooling to the passenger compartments in moving vehicles.
All use conditions, unacceptability findings, and other regulatory actions for this end-use apply
equally to on-road vehicles, such as automobiles and trucks, and to off-road vehicles, such as
tractors, combines, construction, mining equipment, boats, planes, and trains.

BARRIER HOSES: HCFC-22, a component in some blends, can seep out through traditional hoses. Therefore,
when using these blends, the technician must ensure that new, less permeable "barrier" hoses are
used. These hoses must be installed if the system currently uses old, non-barrier hoses.. The
table of refrigerants below notes this additional requirement where appropriate

Technicians who repair or service CFC-12 and HFC-134a motor vehicle air conditioners must
be trained and certified by an EPA approved organization.
Technicians who repair or service MVACs that use blend refrigerants must be trained and
certified by an EPA-approved organization. If a technician is already trained and certified to
handle CFC-12 or HFC-134a, he does not need to be recertified to handle a blend refrigerant.
Note, that while certification is required in order to service motor vehicle air-conditioners,
certification is not required to purchase R-134a.
Right now, there is no restriction on the sale of HFC-134a, so anyone may purchase it. This
year, EPA will issue a proposed rule under section 608 of the Act that will include a proposal to
restrict the sale of HFC-134a so that only technicians certified under sections 608 and 609 may
purchase it. After the proposed rule is published, EPA will review comments from the public on
the proposal and will then publish a final rule sometime in 1998 or 1999.

EPA is also amending the prohibition against venting substitute refrigerants to reflect the
changes in the definitions. These changes are being finalized to make certain that the regulations
promulgated on March 12, 2004 cannot be construed as a restriction on the sales of substitutes
that do not consist of an ozone-depleting substance (ODS), such as pure hydrofluorocarbon
(HFC) and perfluorocarbon (PFC) substitutes. The March 12, 2004 final rule was not intended to either mandate section 608 technician
certification for those maintaining, repairing, or servicing appliances using substitutes that do not
consist of a class I or class II ODS or to restrict the sale of substitutes that do not contribute to
the depletion of the stratospheric ozone layer, such as pure HFC and PFC substitutes

Technician means any person who performs maintenance, service, or repair that could be
reasonably expected to release class I or class II refrigerants from appliances, except for
MVACs, into the atmosphere. A petition for review challenging the March 12, 2004 final rule stated that the amended
definition of technician could be misinterpreted to mean that technicians servicing and
maintaining MVACs must also have section 608 technician certification.

EPA inadvertently removed the text except for MVACs from the definition of technician, at
Sec. 82.152. Since EPA did not intend for the amended definition of technician to include
persons servicing or repairing MVACs, the Agency is reverting to the original definition.

One of EPA's amended definitions of ``technician'' includes any person (including DIYers or
process operators) who performs maintenance, service, or repair, that could be reasonably
expected to release refrigerants from appliances into the atmosphere. This has been changed,
back and forth, many times.

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john in la

12-28-2007 18:54:02




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to jdemaris, 12-28-2007 08:10:36  
My local Wal Mart has cans of 134 sitting right on the shelf in the auto section.



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dave guest

12-28-2007 18:39:26




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to jdemaris, 12-28-2007 08:10:36  
I was IMACA certified 30 years ago I think. I bought and charged all types of equipment. Bout 5 years ago, supplier Granger refused to sell me any refrigerants. Said my certification was no good, anymore. I said what should I do. They had no idea. Closed my account and left.



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trucker40

12-28-2007 09:39:10




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to jdemaris, 12-28-2007 08:10:36  
I dont know,other than the ozone layer,what the problem was with R-12.I pulled a refrigerated trailer for 15 years.There were times I had to have the reefer unit fixed.Now I dont know what the law said,but the mechanic at one of those shops said(could have been lying)that unless it leaked a certain amount(all of the freon in less than a few months)they didnt have to fix it? I had to have a compressor put on,I was in Memphis.They didnt hook a reclaimer to it,just unhooked a line.Twice,since the"technician"messed up and I had to go back to Memphis and get another"technician"to fix it right. So,if these clowns do that,what is the EPA talking about?In a lot of cases I think a technician is just a name for thief,and I was a mechanic myself.There are good and bad ones. Just my opinion,but I think it was all a farce to charge more money for R-12,then replace it. These people have to get a certification,have a reclaimer,all that.Then open up a line,plus the EPA tells them-you dont need to fix a small leak?Sure,they dont want to fix a small leak,since you allready were forced to go to them to get R-12 they were selling it for 90 dollars a pound,but not required to fix a small leak?Yeah right.It could have been a lie,but there are laws that are not made to work for individuals.They are made to work for big companies.When there are only 2 reefer companies in the country,its not much competition.Especially since one of those companies dont even act like they know they make reefers. I have also been to shops that used a reclaimer.
Seems to me that they didnt get the word about not fixing small leaks. I dont know who to believe.I know enough about it to add my own,and replace an expansion valve if it bolts in.

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James22

12-28-2007 12:19:14




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to trucker40, 12-28-2007 09:39:10  
The ban on A/C R-12 is a joke. More than 80% came from manufacturing rigid foam insulation. Freon was injected during the molding process which expended the foam and released the gas to the atmosphere. DuPont didn't care if it was discontinued because they would profit from sale of the replacement, A/C R-134A. They now use water/steam to expand the foam and the resulting insulation value isn't as good. Another screw job from the EPA and our hapless government.

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Texasmark

12-28-2007 08:27:03




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to jdemaris, 12-28-2007 08:10:36  
Around here, purchasing the 12-14 oz (forgot which) can is not a problem. Nor are fill and servicing hoses. Have not seen 20 pounders or the like available to the general public....but just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean that it isn't for sale.

I really lucked out on the '74 4230 Deere I bought in '05. The guy who restored it put in a completely new (expept for the coils) 134A ref system. Boy was I tickled about that and does it work good.

Mark

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jdemaris

12-28-2007 10:25:22




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to Texasmark, 12-28-2007 08:27:03  
The big cans are available here for anyone. Local BJs Wholesale store sells the big cans and also cases of the small 12 oz. cans. Last time I bought, the 134A was cheaper by gettting a case of small cans than it was to buy one big can (20 lbs. or something like that).
I've gotten so I like the small cans anyway, this way I don't have to weigh the gas I put it in - just do the math.



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flashback

12-28-2007 08:53:26




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 Re: 134a AC work on your car or tractor - and laws in reply to Texasmark, 12-28-2007 08:27:03  
As one who has worked in the refrigeration (Auto, Home and commercial) business for more than 30 years I have read all the regs etc., and this is what is most important. All 12 systems can be converted by using 134a, 512 or other exotic mixtures. All refrigerators were 12 for many years.Home AC's use 22. I converted thousands of systems for soft drink companies. Here is where you get in a bind. You are required to evacuate all systems into receivers not simply blow it into the atmosphere. You need a certificate to purchase all refrigerants except 134a. Some wholesale distributors will require a certificate to purchase any large amountod any even 134a (CYA) I wouldnt worry too much if no one is around to see. Also, what about the leaking systems. I spent years in Florida where at least half the homes have swimming pools and are purified with chlorine that escapes into the atmosphere and no one had even mentioned that. It is a commonly known fact that the worst atmospheric polluter is animal flatulance ( not BS either). Also note that the average person cannot purchase an outside condenser for an AC unit as they come with 22 already in the unit. So my opinion is ---much ado about a little.

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