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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel

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blackwagon

04-05-2008 12:47:03




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I need an opinion. Looking at purchasing another tractor for the farm. (Currently have ~30hp and ~65hp) Right now, I NEED about a 100hp. I expect to NEED something bigger in the next 5yrs.
With fuel at a premium, is it ignorance to go ahead and buy a bigger tractor (~140hp) right now?
Sure it will use more fuel but how much more - only as much as the demand you put on it, right? Seems to me, the only thing that will cause more fuel useage is the fact that a bigger tractor weighs a little more, right?

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HeyPigFarmer

04-06-2008 12:59:22




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
Well out of the tractors listed there I can give you a side by side comparison of 3 and almost the 4th.
We had a 4320 in the past, we currently have a 4430, a Ford TW10 (which is not quite a TW20) and I have spent over 1000 hours on a 1066 IH. All four are close to the same power with the TW10 lacking by a few. But in the same general area, same dirt, pulling the same Glencoe 7 leg soil saver (both us and the neighbor have the same model etc.) at about the same speed. The 1066 comes out on top as the fuel miser. It starts the best, runs the best, and burns the least amount of fuel. In sandy ground usually 5.8 to 6.3gph and in heavy ground up to 7.4 gph. The ford comes in second, burns more fuel and doesn't start like the IH. It is pretty consistent around 6.2 to to 6.6gph no matter what. Both Deere tractors use around the same amount of fuel, started the worst in cold weather and used anywhere 6.4 to 8gph depending on conditions. The IH is also the highest hour tractor in the group.

I remember back when diesel was cheaper than gas the neighbor would use the 1066 to grind feed instead of his 656 because even at the low load (50-60hp) it hardly used any fuel. Pulling wagons with it only goes through about 3-4gph.
In my opinion I wouldn't buy a tractor based solely on fuel consumption. The IH burns the least fuel, but has the worst ergonomics and hydraulics plus the nosiest transmission. The Ford once again is in the middle with the Deere having the quietest cab and best ergonomics... but needs a gas pedal on the floor. The Fords are a good mix of all points, I still prefer a Deere being so close to the dealer but if you can get parts, are comfortable around them I would be looking harder at them. Just remember on the x700's and earlier to change the oil in your injection pump.
Just my ramblings. Good luck.

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buickanddeere

04-06-2008 11:07:27




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
A diesel, gas turbine or boilers operating at part load/part fuel/full airflow. All are fuel wasting hogs due to burning fuel just heat air and then send that hot air up the stack as waste heat. You have be balance short term vs. long term costs of fuel vs. equipment.



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Lee in Iowa

04-05-2008 22:41:19




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
I've got 2 856's and a 1486 pretty close to the two sizes you're looking at. I've never done any scientific tests, but it doesn't seem like the 14 uses much more fuel than an 8 doing the same job. Most tractors in the 140 horse range probably have a turbo which should help their efficiency. I'll agree the post that says the 354 perkins are very good. 550 massey and 6620 jd running right next to each other jd took twice as much fuel. Lee

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James22

04-05-2008 22:25:36




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
I agree that you are going to suffer some fuel efficiency by running a 140 hp tractor for a 60 hp job. However you might not see the fuel consumption difference between running a 140 hp tractor or a 100 hp tractor at 100 hp. I likely would opt for the higher hp tractor if I expected to need the larger one in the next 5 years. If fuel consumption is the critical issue when choosing a tractor, I would access the Nebraska Tractor Tests and compare results. This data also includes part load fuel consumption which is useful to evaluate tractor efficiency when operating at lower horsepowers.

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Sid

04-05-2008 19:37:06




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
"With fuel at a premium, is it ignorance to go ahead and buy a bigger tractor (~140hp) right now?" For what it is worth I don't think so. Why do you need 100 now and 140 in five years? It seems to me like you will need to upgrade implements now and again five years from now. I think I would consider going with the bigger tractor or maybe something in between the two. It has been my experience what I think is big enough, is more often than not, just a little bit short from the get go.

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Sid

04-05-2008 19:37:04




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
"With fuel at a premium, is it ignorance to go ahead and buy a bigger tractor (~140hp) right now?" For what it is worth I don't think so. Why do you need 100 now and 140 in five years? It seems to me like you will need to upgrade implements now and again five years from now. I think I would consider going with the bigger tractor or maybe something in between the two. It has been my experience what I think is big enough, is more often than not, just a little bit short from the get go.

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blackwagon

04-05-2008 18:35:46




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
One more comment, and I'll leave it. Going thru the colors, here's what I'm looking at:
IH1066/1486
IH1466/1486
Ford 9600/9700/TW20
JD 4430/4320

Leaning more towards the Fords, b/c I've been around these and used the x700 and TW series

THanks for the responses



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bradley martin

04-05-2008 16:08:21




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
rrlund's tractors are of the vintage you are looking at...and his experience is very typical. Use the smallest tractor that is adequate for the job to be done is the way to maximize fuel efficiency. Re-read jdemaris's comments..he is right on. On top of that, you have the added weight/compaction issue etc. Using an excessively large tractor will cost you in a number of ways.More than that, there is no guarantee what your tractor needs will be in 5 yrs.

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jdemaris

04-05-2008 15:44:36




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
A big tractor becomes a fuel-hog when used at low power. That because an engine only runs efficently within a certain load-range. A 140 horse tractor used to do a 20 horsepower job will use more fuel than an old 8N Ford gas tractor. That's why tractors need to be sized for the work they do to be efficient.

For example, a Deere 7220 with a 414 turbo-diesel when worked at 104 horsepower has an efficiency rating of 18 horsepower hours per gallon. When worked at 44 horsepower efficiency drops to 11. When worked at 22 horsepower efficiency drops to 7 horsepower hours per gallon. And old Ford 8N with a flathead gas engine when worked at 22 horsepower has an efficiency of 9.6 horsepower hours per gallon - beating the modern Deere diesel.

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RodInNS

04-05-2008 14:42:00




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
Basically, yes...
The 140 hp may or may not have more parasitic losses as well, depending on the transmission and hydraulic options.
I'd think that if you wern't going to put a whole pile of hours on it then buy the bigger one now because the slight difference in fuel efficiency is apt to be much more than offset by the depreciation loss over 5 years. On the other hand if you're going to put 500-1000 hours per year on the tractor then the fuel efficiency is a bigger issue and you probably won't lose out on the depreciation provided you buy it outright. Leasing with those kind of hours is likely to result in a penalty...
That's how I look at it anyway, right or wrong.

Rod

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Charlien

04-05-2008 14:10:06




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
Multiply maximum flywheel hp by .035.That will tell you how many gallons per hour.Good Luck.



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rrlund

04-05-2008 13:59:16




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 12:47:03  
Not really. I've got an Oliver 1850 (90 hp) and a White 2-135 (135 hp). You can almost watch the fuel guage drop on the White when it's idling. I had some problems a few years ago with the Oliver and had to cut hay with the White. Used about twice as much fuel. Just a suggestion here,buy a 90 hp Deere now,in 5 years it will still be worth as much or more than the 140 hp non Deere that you'll need then.

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135 Fan

04-05-2008 17:50:54




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to rrlund, 04-05-2008 13:59:16  
The 1850 has 6-354 Perkins. Hard to beat it's fuel economy like most Perkins, especially the 3 cylinder 152. Dave



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blackwagon

04-05-2008 14:43:55




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to rrlund, 04-05-2008 13:59:16  
OK - Is rrlund's situation typical? To me it doesn't seem like that's the way it should be.. Twice as much fuel for something 50% bigger?
Maybe so - I'm no expert.
Has anybody else had one down and was able to do this type of comparison?
Just for discussion, but I am looking at late 70's early 80's vintage. Not new.



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RodInNS

04-05-2008 18:20:59




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 14:43:55  
What specific tractors are you looking at? Some have far better mid speed efficiency numbers than others, sometimes at the expense of top end efficiency.
I've spent most of my time around Fords. I've got one turned up to about 105 hp. Sometimes it's used flat out chopping silage while other times it loafs around on light work. It never burns less than 2 gph and never more than 4 with the average being around 3 for most things it does.

I still think that in your situation you need to figure out what kind of use and hours you'll put on the tractor. You go buy some old thing today and end up spending 10 grand on it in repairs, the only way you'll ever get that money back out of it is to use it because it's still worth exactly the same amount when it's fixed as it was before it broke. I think you'd be further ahead to put up with a bit less fuel efficiency for a few years than to try and trade up later... especially with older tractors.

Rod

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e

04-05-2008 17:16:12




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 14:43:55  
rrlund's situation is not typical because the 2-135 is horrible, and I mean horrible on fuel. That Herc. engine makes good torque, but is really hungry and inefficient. To compare, a White 140 will use 1 gallon/hour less just idleing. Pulling 100hp, the Cummins will use 1.5 gallon less per hour. This is according to Nebraska tractor tests (which I have copies of.) (for those who are not aware, the 140 is the same tractor as a 2-135 but with a Cummins engine, not the Herc.)

Needless to say, the 2-135 I bought with a bad engine is soon to have a Cummins between the frame rails. It doesn't take long to pay for a $3500 engine with fuel prices the way they are.

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dwrk

04-05-2008 16:32:32




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to blackwagon, 04-05-2008 14:43:55  
Varies too much between models and even between tractors of the same model. We're running 3 JDs, 6400, 6420 and 7510, and a White 6124. Even though it's rated at 39 hp more the White uses about the same amount of fuel as the 6400. Some people swear fuel economy has gone down in newer tractors with all the extra emission controls etc., I'm not sure they're wrong.



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blackwagon

04-05-2008 18:37:17




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 Re: Need Opinion - tractor size v. fuel in reply to dwrk, 04-05-2008 16:32:32  
One more comment, and I'll leave it. Going thru the colors, here's what I'm looking at:
IH1066/1486
IH1466/1486
Ford 9600/9700/TW20
JD 4430/4320
Leaning more towards the Fords, b/c I've been around these and used the x700 and TW series

THanks for the responses



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