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Economy- How can it improve with out

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Dave from MN

01-26-2009 16:33:43

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jobs? In my opinion ANY checks sent out to Americans for stimulus will not be used to buy anything that will increase or create jobs here in the USA, where that spent money will find its way through the system of "job creation". While every one blames the economy on George Bush because of the war, well I do not buy that, because so far I have not seen any of my taxes increase to pay for it, other than property taxes. What I can only come to figure for the causes are that for 10-12 years we have seen how many millions of jobs leave our country, I remember certain politicians saying that X amount of jobs were created, but all I see out there are part time, low wage, maybe some full time, no benefit jobs. I seen a real estate bubble that grew and created a very large quantity of home building related jobs, but really , that market growth should never have happened like it did, and all it did was create a mask for the amount manufacturing and other related jobs that left, for good. With no one making a decent income anymore, unless you are in certain field (which not every can be), how can Americans expect things to turn around. The amount of jobs available to sustain "the American dream" which simply now is a home and a vehicle and health coverage, seem non existent. How can we turn the economy around when we have such a lack of US products being produced, which really causes a lack of jobs, which causes a lack of income, which causes a lack of cash flow per American, which causes a lack of bank borrowing, which comes right back again to lack of demand for products because no one can afford to buy something that would keep their brother or sister employed. I just don"t see what can help, all I can see is we need to some how give companies a reason to come back to the US. How, With the lay"s off announced just today, and the lay offs logged at the site some one posted earlier. I cant see how anything can turn around anytime in the near future. What do you guys think? Reason I am writing this is because I am seeing ALOT of folks looking at losing what they have, even folks that planned ahead, had savings, college educations, and seemed to be doing things smart.

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jhilyer

01-27-2009 05:21:26

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

I think one thing that will -eventually- happen is that as China and other developing nations finally "develop"; their people will gradually demand (and get) a higher standard of living. Basically, they will become us. And when that happens, their goods and services will not be cheap anymore. It's already happening in China, but not fast enough to save us fom the impending storm.
Eventually, I think the world will balance out. But maybe not in my lifetime (and I'm in my 30's).

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El Toro

01-27-2009 04:33:24

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

I heard the Citi Group were given 47 billion and guess how it was used. They bought a private jet.
This Depression isn't going to be fixed overnight.
With 2 wars being fought and people being laid off
Most of the bailout money given out last Fall was wasted.

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lucas boy

01-27-2009 04:26:02

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

I REALLY LIKE THE OLD 2 CYLINDER DEERES.

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Charles Lendman

01-27-2009 08:49:38

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to lucas boy, 01-27-2009 04:26:02

me too!! I even go out to my garage and just look at it once in a while!!

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Spook

01-26-2009 21:39:28

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

One thing I see is that a lot of people thought that manufacturing going overseas didn't affect them. When the production leaves, the support jobs go soon after. I used to work tool & die, and now a lot of tooling is built overseas. I think a lot of people would be surprised how many every day items are made in china. Fasteners of all types - even aircraft stuff, pipe fittings, seals, bearings, pumps, castings, forgings - American industry has been hollowed out. And union has nothing to do with it - nobody can compete with pennies per hour in the 3rd world. And now service jobs are leaving - one of my neighbors was a cpa for a large insurance firm headquatered here. After 14 years, he got layed off, they sent the entire accounting division to India. Same for the IT department. Now, even hospitals around here are laying off.

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Dave F.

01-26-2009 20:16:29

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

People need jobs, No job= No money, Takes money to buy cars, trucks, & tractor's and other goods, Make them affordable, Yes I would like a new truck, but I WILL NOT PAY NO $500.00 Month payment for one. You would think the big three auto maker's could figure this out. Thats why no one are buying cars ect. To much debt load, Plus there is no incetive for people to save. Dave F.

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M Moline fan

01-26-2009 19:19:20

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

One of the last things I heard President Bush say was he feared that because of the slowing economy our country might go back to "protectionism". I thought WHAT??? And I voted for him twice! I'd liked to ask him if he doesn't think having millions of jobs leaving our country has anything to do with the recession. I bet he doesn't want his income/pension messed with-- too bad for the rest?

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NY 986

01-26-2009 19:09:54

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

The problems with today's economy transcends politics in a lot of ways. Gun guru has a pretty good take on it. Went to school then college from the 70's to the mid 1980's. Every step of the way, the notion of working with your hands is going to get you left behind in society is thrown at you. Add to that savings is no longer a part of the modern economic equation. Also, a sense of nonrealistic idealism is taught that you can trust virtually anybody on the face of the earth. The problem is everybody forgot manufacturing built the trade surplus we saw for most of the 20th century. The HARD currency brought in allowed corporations to hand out salary increases most of that time. If the money supply is finite and you send HARD currency out, you can only maintain that level of economic activity with debt. Debt also contributed to the decrease in savings. Aside from the obvious, allowing individuals to leverage themselves made for increases in economic activity(housing, real estate, stocks). Whether intended or not, this made the value of durable goods (as well as commodities) rise artificially. This rate of increase of value as a percent appeared to make savings rates noncompetitive. Did have one professor lecture about the dangers of sudden shifts in the markets of durable goods. It remains to be seen how much our blind trust of international trading partners is going to hurt us long term. Most of the problems we see with the economy spring up from current culture. When we see people making money with little or no effort, the rest of the herd wants to follow suit. I can only hope people are analyzing what's going on and learn a few lessons. Otherwise we will keep seeing relapses for quite some time.

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Rick(MN)

01-26-2009 18:41:14

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

A lot of valid points made here, also a lot of fair one and some not so fair. The common theme seems to be that it's someone else's fault...evil George Bush, the evil corporations, ect. What continues to amaze me is how seldom the finger gets pointed to us as a society. We live in a "I want it and I want it NOW" society. We are no doubt in a slow economy. I'm no economist, but I see it getting worse before it gets better. By historic standards, unemployment is still relatively low. I suspect we are going to have to get up in the 11% area before it turns around. I'm also amazed by the money still being spent in eating and drinking establishments. I also get a kick out of seeing how many "wants" versus "needs" are still in peoples shopping carts these days. All I can gather from that is perhaps there are a lot of people paying for luxuries as opposed to mortages. I'm not a wise old man by any means, but in my lifetime I have seen the economy go up and down, each time people thinking its the end of the world. As for jobs, I have to agree that it does not seem right that so many jobs have left the country and precious little seems to be made here anymore. That being said, dont forget that during the Great Depression, almost everything was made here and to date, that is the worst economical period of our history. Therefore, while not making things here is one of our problems, changing that isnt a magic bullet. There is more than enough blame to go around...most of it beyond our control. Personally, I too have been saying this has been coming for awhile. Not because of who was in office, but simply because of the fact that the economy had been too good for too long and I'm a big believer in life being like a pendulum, first on way then the other. Like most, I'm not going to make as much as I had in the past, but I now have it coming from different sources as opposed to being dependent on just one or 2 sources. The economy will come back just like it always has before, it's just going to take longer this time than it has in the past. Sorry this got so long winded.

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tlak

01-26-2009 18:11:37

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

If the Americans get enough money it would help the economy. If you gave every one 100k they would buy houses, pay off houses, save, spend and the economy would be self fixing.

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01-27-2009 04:35:56

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to tlak, 01-26-2009 18:11:37

I disagree with you tlak. To many handouts already. Sure I'd like a hand out! Who wouldn't? Fact is, I've always worked with my hands, and worked hard my entire life. I've NEVER had a hand out. Have had a never ending line of scam artist always trying to get what little I have. Every day, the line gets longer. I think to myself, get a job! Well, so much for the "Get a Job" thery. If you're going to survive in todays world, you are going to have to create your own job. I don't mean scamming people. I mean creating a job which adds to society. Lots of ways to make money, if a person doesn't mind working. Part of the problem is; no one wants to work now-a-days.

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DiyDave

01-27-2009 03:26:02

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to tlak, 01-26-2009 18:11:37

Just think, TLAK, what you are saying is that the American people know best what to spent THEIR money on. Pretty soon, you'll be calling for a tax cut, wait a minute, you just did, that's what happens when you give back taxpayers money to the tax payers! Mark down this day as momentous, TLAK is a conservative, who'd a thunk it!

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Jeff Oliver

01-26-2009 18:58:36

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to tlak, 01-26-2009 18:11:37

Unfortunatly for the most part you are wrong. the sensible ones would pay off everything and save but for the most part it would ge spent in that new HD 5 ft screen tv and A hummer3 or something. My grandparents came through the depression and new what saving and buying needs was about. Heck they quit gardening about 3 years before they died and they still had 3 deep freezes full of food in the basement.

I'm guilty of it too, over the years I have bought things we wanted instead of saving and just getting what we needed and I'm feeling it now. Not in danger but could be better if I had looked ahead. Hoping I have learned from this.

As for giving people money to spend to help? naw it won't work. Creating new road and bridge jobs? maybe, but it won't fix everything either. Roads and bridges don't produce anything that can be sold to add income to the economy.

As for fixing it? I have no clue, what it will take. I know it will take putting our people back to work producing items that can be sold. Maybe loosen some trade barriers so that the US can do business and sell more of our products abroad. At least that way we will have someone elses money coming in instead of ours going out

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tlak

01-27-2009 00:45:26

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Jeff Oliver, 01-26-2009 18:58:36

It's a given that people would spend, give the automakers and other businesses a boost. Housing would get a boost because some would buy and some would pay off. I would rather have this stimulus package than some crooked, pervertt congress person spending it.
Obviously the long term fix would be for the US to produce products using their own citizens.

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01-26-2009 17:23:23

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

Add a 5 to 10% import tarrif to pay for border security, send toy making jobs to state prison system- (they won"t be competing with American union jobs, instead competing with chinese non union and some prison/child labor), require basic millitary training for most young men and women(Isreali or Norwegian pattern perhaps) before they can attend college. For credit crisis- get congress critter in charge of banking commitee and public hanging for failing to respond to McCains 2005 warning. Call Ross Perot and ask if still available to help stop giant sucking sound of jobs leaving. These are the mild suggestions. RN

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01-26-2009 17:20:16

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

For eight years very few of us have been telling everyone this was comming. You all laughed , and said we were stupid. Didn't know what we were talking about. Guess what? The time has come. Hang on! You aint seen nothing yet! It all happened under Bush's watch. He turned the blind eye, while the whole corporate world , including himself , bent us over. That's why it's his fault. In order to fix the economy , the jobs must come back. Problem is , the corporate world doesn't want to bring them back. They're making too much money. Now for the other twist on things..... .; They are going to squeeze the economy even more. To the point where people sell stock shares for peanuts , just to survive. This will happen BEFORE the economy does a so called recovery. Then the corporate world says ; "we don't owe you anything. You sold your shares". And the rich get richer.

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F-350

01-26-2009 18:51:19

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Reply, 01-26-2009 17:20:16

Bush wasnt alone.Everyone from both political parties turned a blind eye to what was going on.The blame goes deep.

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01-26-2009 20:44:42

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to F-350, 01-26-2009 18:51:19

I never said he was alone. Bush was supposed to be "THE MAN" / "THE LEADER".

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relaurain

01-26-2009 17:46:58

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Reply, 01-26-2009 17:20:16

NAFTA and Unions!

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Gun guru

01-26-2009 17:07:21

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Dave from MN, 01-26-2009 16:33:43

Society in general regards manufacturing jobs as poor rust belt, dumpy surroundings. Personally I think that the best thing for the economy is Manuf. jobs. Home building is great too, but like you said there are now too many houses with not enough buyers. The computer tech jobs are good, but, not enough manuf. to go with them. We shipped our industries over seas to make a little higher margin, US consumers except crap for durable goods and we get what we got now. I had to buy a new clothes dryer 3 weeks ago, I just hope it lasts 10 years. It is a GE, $450. The best jobs for the economy are car/truck production, Tractor production, Aircraft production all in the consumer markets. And if we have to make more tanks and war planes to kill terrorists then great, but having cars and car parts and tractors made in China and over seas is bad for the USA.

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Buzzman72

01-26-2009 21:32:56

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Gun guru, 01-26-2009 17:07:21

A big problem was when people start talking about "net worth"...because "net" implies debt. But when the economy goes in the dumper--as it periodically has cycled throughout the history of this nation--the "net worth" turns to crap when assets turn out to be worth a lot less when the chips are down.

HOW LONG have you heard that the key to success is to use OPM--Other People's Money ??? I've heard it for years. Well, guess what? that's WRONG. The ONLY people who made money on OPM is the broker who gets a commission from you, whether you win or lose. When the bank "calls" your loan because they are having problem with their books, in a normal market maybe you can refinance soemwhere else. But in a down market, your assets are suspect...and if you have to liquidate quickly, you're on the hotseat.

Businesses today have been built on expansion; not how much profit are you making, but what percentage INCREASE in profits and sales are you making? We've come to a "perfect storm" in our economy: our manufacturing base is gone, Baby Boomers are looking to cash out their stocks and 401(k)'s, and sell their homes for smaller retirement homes...at a time when there are suddenly more sellers on both fronts than there are buyers. There's a lot more to it, but this post is long enough already.

Have you noticed that after the Fed AND the government--separately--have poured BILLIONS into this economy, there's STILL no noticible inflation? That's a sign of how far down the crapper things REALLY are...and I have a hunch it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.

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davpal

01-26-2009 22:43:18

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Buzzman72, 01-26-2009 21:32:56

Funny thing here in Michigan and lots of other places kids nowdays can't even afford to inherit their parents property or houses for free!I was talking to a cousin the other day and he said if his kids could have his house for free right now they could never afford the taxes,insurance,heating bill, electric bill, groceries,phones. No way. And how do you even sell it at a 50% discount when nobody can even pay you that much because they don't have good paying jobs? These companies around here can barely afford to keep the electric on. I don't think most of them are thinking about hiring thousands of young people and paying them $20 plus dolllars per hour, matching 401K, medical insurance, paid holidays, overtime, sub pay, pension plan. Not happening. Big three used to be the staple around here and now all that low hanging fruit has been picked from the trees. Now a young guy can go to work at GM and make half what his 60 year old dad does and get no benefits to go along with it. Hence, not being able to inherit parents place.

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Buzzman72

01-27-2009 12:18:19

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to davpal, 01-26-2009 22:43:18

And just remember...Senator McConnell was insisting that Dad's pay get cut, too, as a condition of the auto industry getting bailout funds.

Wonder if McConnell thinks that plumbers or surgeons are overpaid as well? How about welders? Who's next on his pay-cut hit list? Because if he can get his way on one, the only question left is, who's next?

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northener

01-26-2009 17:16:44

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to Gun guru, 01-26-2009 17:07:21

No doubt its a difficult problem but tell me how do we stop buying Asian goods when thats all the store sells. If we stop buying their goods and they stop buying ours what do we end up with. We dont grow rubber for tires so how would we make tires.We dont have enough oil for our own use so how could we survive if we didnt buy foreign oil. No thats no the right answer. If we all traded fair maybe things would work out.Foreign countries wouldnt be able to use child labor, would have stricter enviroment laws so we would all be on a fair playing field.Thats as I see it.

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trucker40

01-27-2009 10:04:14

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to northener, 01-26-2009 17:16:44

You are right but there is no fair trade now.What they called fair trade was cut tariffs on imports,ship out our jobs and manufacturing,and bring imports in for a cheaper price than we can make them.There is nothing wrong that cant be fixed,however the crooks are getting lined up with their hand out to get a payoff to maybe make it look like they did something.Lots of corruption to wade through to get anything done now,and the end result is less than what you expect,and sometimes worse,depending on the group of crooks you are dealing with.Everybody needs a clear idea of what needs to be done,then hold their feet to the fire until they do it.Throwing up your hands saying its difficult is wrong.NAFTA needs to be scrapped,along with any other world agenda,which is just a farce to enslave us,raise tariffs on imports to where its cheaper to make the stuff here.Needs to be done 8 years ago,not next year.

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trucker40

01-27-2009 10:19:51

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Re: Economy- How can it improve with out in reply to trucker40, 01-27-2009 10:04:14

One more thing,way before other countries like China raise their environmental standards,we will be dragged more down to their level,than them elevated to our level.Environmental stuff will get more and more important,but the actual solution to it,and you dont want to hear it,is less people.There is so many people in China they could kill their entire workforce and replace it overnight.Thats why unemployment being high is dangerous,we got by without you now,so what makes you think we even need you?Then if that gets bad enough,like the refugees and just plain poor people that come here,you will be looking for a way to another country for a job.Or there are worse scenarios like you can fight this war for us,or go to another country.Or you can be a slave,but we dont really want you here.
It would be good if things got better for the environment and population went up,but its not all that likely it will.

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