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3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited)

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rgv tx

01-08-2006 19:15:39




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Howdy again,
Finally got a day off.....at least a whole day and took the time to look at the tractor again. I printed all the replies from my last inquiry as the memory isn't what it once was.
To bring you up to speed, I had pulled the injectors and had them checked, they are good. I swapped injectors 1 and 2 and the miss continued on cylinder 1. Hurley J.D. suggested I pull the injector and hook to the pump line and observe what happens. I turned it over and sure enough it does not spray fuel out of the injector. If I understand correctly, that means there isn't enough pressure to crack the injector?
I tried cylinder 2 and it sprays so I switched injectors again and sure enough, it's the line going to cyl. 1. I pulled the line off, blew it out but still does the same thing. Line is clear as it will pump fuel when released from the injector. Soundguy suggested possibly the pump was not pumping on that line but that wasn't logical to me. RodInNS wrote and said it is possible if the tractor has a Simms pump. Indeed it does have a Simms pump. I said it has a noticeable smell of diesel, has a lot of white smoke as well as a wet exhaust which would indicate it was pushing fuel through. BUT, I noticed today when I pulled that injector the hole appears to be dry.
So does any of that make sense to anyone? Is there a way to check the fuel pressure for each individual line?
Oh, also RodInNS suggested pulling the banjo fitting loose from each injector which I did. Each had some fuel coming out, but I sort of expected #1 to be pumping a lot of fuel, or at least more than the other 2 but it didn't appear that way to me.
So I'm back to square 1. What now? My first thought is to pull the injector pump, but I know a rebuild is big bucks. Could it be something as simple as the pump being out of time? I don't see how since it won't crack the injector with it out. I pulled all three fuel lines loose and cranked it over. The pump a spurt each revolution for each cylinder as far as I can tell, it turns over so darn fast it's hard to tell if they are in sequence or not.
I better quite rambling on, I'm going to confuse everyone including myself.
BTW, I did not ever pull the head. Decided after reading all the suggestions I might be putting the wagon ahead of the horse.
Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? Guesses? Remarks? Theories?

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soundguy

01-10-2006 07:25:03




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
If your mechanic will fix the pump on the tractor go that route.. that way you don't have to learn how to time the pump! ( my vote )

Rodin is correct on that pump fuel issue... I was'nt thinking o fthe inline pump with oil resv.. but the rotary that is fuel lubed like my late 5000 has.

Soundguy



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Baba

01-09-2006 11:46:54




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
if you could do a pressure test on line 2&3 and found them to be well within specs.i would say you have a repairable pump(plunger spring, seat, vol. reducer)if not then it is like spark plug wires when one fails the rest aren't far behind.



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rgv tx

01-09-2006 11:42:03




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
You guys realize your not telling what I want to hear! I was hoping for something like "just take your magic wand, wave it over the tractor and say abracadbra and all will be fine".
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I went ahead and pulled it out and pressure washed it again (it's 80 degrees today!) since I had pretty well coated the entire right side of the engine in fuel. It does not appear the pump has ever been pulled before, but who knows. I can see the head has been off, the starter has been rebuilt and there was the reminents of a tag on the radiator from a repair at some time. Everything else looks to have been left alone.
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I had hoped to also paint the tractor while I have it apart, but there is still a lot of grease to get off first. I heard oven cleaner works best? Suggestions on that? What does it do to anything rubber that it makes contact with?
Oh well, need to get it running right before I spend time on that anyway. I suppose I will pull the pump and take it to where I took the injectors and had them checked. Everyone in the area says he's the best and that he's been around forever and is more than fair on prices. I suppose I'll find out in the next week or two if I'm home long enough to get it over there.
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Wish me luck, I'm sure I will need it.
Again, thanks for the ideas and suggestions. You guys are the greatest as is this fantastic site.
rgv tx in Bee You Tee Full South Texas

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Hurley J. D.

01-09-2006 18:34:45




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-09-2006 11:42:03  
How about me sending you a patch of dead grass instead of the green you have, this has been the driest year I can remember, 1956 had more rainfall than this year, but we reccived two inchs the first two days of 2005. All of the rain was in the first quarter. By the way Tawakoni is 8.5 foot down. . You might talk to the man that did the injectors. He might let you haul the tractor in and look at it. He might be able to fix it with out removing the pump. The man that I use here in Sulphur Springs will fix one on the tractor. If he cannot then he pulls the pump and does what needs to be done. He can also adjust the fuel flow and get as much as possible out of the tractor after the pump is installed. A little more cost but worth it.

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rgv tx

01-09-2006 19:15:09




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to Hurley J. D., 01-09-2006 18:34:45  
I think I will do that. His shop is small, but I know the tractor will fit inside. It's a tiny place, and only has one door....but that's a roll up door.
The grass you see on that side of the yard is the part I irrigated a few days ago and isn't nearly as green as the other side where it's more shaded. This picture was taken one year ago next month, but the lawn looks exactly the same right now. third party image
I'll pass on the brown stuff, although it would be nice to get a break from having to mow 12 months a year.
So Tawakoni is down that far? That's scary, as I recall that is where Dallas used to draw most or all of their water. By the way, I have got many a ton of sand bass in that lake, oh the good old days. BIL has a place on the water at Fork, and we always drug the boat to Tawakoni. Go figure.
Stay safe up that way.

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RodInNS

01-09-2006 08:16:55




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
If I understand your post correctly, you have swapped injectors around, and verified that #1 line is not firing, regardless of the injector installed. That narrows the problem to the injection pump, and specifically, that pumping element. Since you have a Simms pump, this could be a problem with a broken plunger spring, or possibly a bad delivery valve. If you can get somebody close by that knows those pumps, you might get a bad spring fixed fairly cheaply and easily. If not, then just pull the pump and send it to a certified injection/turbo repair shop. A buddy of mine will do that stuff in place on the tractor, but you've got to know what you're doing around pumps to get away with that. HTH.

Rod

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soundguy

01-09-2006 07:14:41




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
Still sounds like what i had originally said.. weak pump on the cyl...

Sounds like time for a rebuild / reman / new-used..core/swap... etc..

Soundguy



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rgv tx

01-09-2006 16:11:02




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to soundguy, 01-09-2006 07:14:41  
I checked the oil today and notice it's over full. Could that also be a sign of pump failure assuming I'm getting diesel in the crankcase? It appears the oil is too clean in my opinion. Also, I read on this site to drop some oil on a paper towel and if it spreads quickly it's diesel. I did, and it spread quickly.



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RodInNS

01-09-2006 20:17:24




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-09-2006 16:11:02  
Are you sure the sump is making oil, or is it just overfull form the last change, and you hadn't taken much notice of it? Form your pictures, the tractor doesn't have PS, or any other coolers that could add fluid to the engine's sump. As far as the fuel pump goes; what Soundguy said would certainly be true of a distributer pump like on the models mentioned.... But with the Simms pump on your tractor, fuel passing the pump shaft seal into the engine is not likely. If you look at the Simms pump, you'll notice that the pressurised section of the pump is to the rear, while there is a separate govenor case to the front of the pump. The govenor case has it's own oil resevoir, and is also vented to the atmosphere, so as it can't be pressurised. If the pumping chambers were passing any amount of fuel, it would eventually run out the breather tube on the pump body.... unless that tube was plugged. Then it could pressurise the pump body, and perhaps force past the seal into the engine crankcase. However, if this were the case, you would have no doubt noticed very erratic govenor operation long before now..... So I think that's a long shot. The only other ways for the engine oil level to rise in that engine is through bad injectors dumping poorly atomized fuel into the combustion chamber, and washing down the cylinders, or a bad head gasket allowing coolant into the base... It may ( and I say may, as I'm not certain) be possible for the hydraulic pump itself to have an internal leak that would allow hydraulic oil to enter the engine through the pump's drive arpeture.
Since you've had the injectors checked, I would rule them out. To rule coolant out, let the tractor sit over night, and then carefully remove the oil drain plug, just to let a bit of oil out. If there is coolant in the oil, it will have settled out to the bottom over night, and should be the first fluid out the drain. Those are the 2 worst scenarios to rule out. If it's actually taking on oil from the hydraulic system, the hydraulic oil isn't apt to do much harm, and you can track it down over time by watching both oil levels. OK, I've said too much tonight....

Rod

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souNdguy

01-09-2006 19:33:21




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-09-2006 16:11:02  
An overfull oil sump .. it's getting overfull from somewhere. Either fuel, or hyd/trans oil. Seeings as you are having pump problems.. i'm inclined to believe injector pump.. may be a shaft seal giving in and pumping fuel into the crankcase instead of that cyl? I've seen a ford 8xx with a diesel pump problem, that dumped fuel into the crankcase...

Just to be sure.. check water and trans/hyd/diff oil sumps.. and don't run that engine till you change out that oil..

Soundguy

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Hurley J. D.

01-08-2006 20:36:59




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
Proable time for a pump rebuild. I have searched the web and found this place that shows a simms for a 3 cylinder for $425. That sounds about right. You might give them a call.



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awhtx

01-09-2006 06:24:32




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 Read the fine print..... in reply to Hurley J. D., 01-08-2006 20:36:59  
Notice that all of the prices have an * beside them. Scroll down and you will see that the quoted price covers ONLY the price of a re-seal kit and any additional parts are extra.

I have never dealt with this company so I'm not accusing them of anything BUT their quoted price for the RoosaMaster pump as used on 4 cylinder Ford diesels is a lot cheaper than any price I've been quoted.



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Doug Carmean

01-08-2006 20:09:58




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 Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. (Re-Visited) in reply to rgv tx, 01-08-2006 19:15:39  
I had a very similar problem with my 550 backhoe. (same engine as a 3 cyl 4000) It would miss on no. 1 under light load, but run smooth under full load. Switched injectors, still missed on no 1. It got slowly worse until it missed about all the time. I had hoped for a bad injector, but no such luck. Pulled the injectors and had a diesel shop check them. all within specs. I hate to tell you this part----- I spent almost a thousand buck on the pump. Starts quick and runs like new now.

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