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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Learned some lessons.

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Pat K

06-05-2005 20:20:09




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Just a follow-up to a post from last week. (In the process of learning a lesson) I chickened out on the "Comet in the intake" trick. I did tear the engine down again and I'm glad I did, I had broken a chip out of one of the bottom (4th) rings. It stayed with the ring and didn't do any damage to the cylinder so I feel lucky to have found it. I bought a new set of rings (still have appx .024" end gap) and a ball hone and went at it.

Here are a few things I learned out of this ordeal; - The crosshatch that came on the new liners was almost polished off, not very deep at all. - The cylinders had a lot of fine vertical scratches, I assume from the dirt introduced into the cylinders when I put the head gasket on. The stamped holes did not fit around the studs and when I forced them over, they filed their way through. This time I opened the holes up with a drill first. Went right over. - After 1.5 to 2 hrs of break-in the top ring was shiny the full ring width near the end-gap but only the middle 1/2 was shiny around the rest of the ring. - The second rings were all shiny near the bottom of the ring for about .020", the top of the ring didn't look like it had touched the cylinder yet. - The fourth rings were only making contact with the cylinders in certain areas, not all the way around yet. - I beveled the cylinder at the top slightly to help the rings go in. Made things much easier. I'm used to bikes, the cylinders get installed over the pistons and there is a big bevel at the bottom of the cylinder to help the rings slide in.

With the compression/vacuum that it had before, it idled like "bang-bang-putt-bang", now it's much smoother and it starts much easier also. I am able to get a much lower idle without stalling, and I have seen no smoke at all yet. All the strange things I noticed with the first set of rings, probably would not have happened if I'd have honed the cylinders first time through, they may have eventually sealed but I feel better now.

Thanks for the advice guys, hope I get to ride this thing a bit when it gets back home.

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Hobo,NC

06-06-2005 05:01:13




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 Re: Learned some lessons. in reply to Pat K, 06-05-2005 20:20:09  
New pistons and liners .024 end gap what wuz the piston to cylinder wall clearence, looks like you may git to learn sum more. None of this does not figger with new parts. Rings should wear the same all the way around if clearence checks out.



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Rob

06-05-2005 20:37:17




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 Re: Learned some lessons. in reply to Pat K, 06-05-2005 20:20:09  
Piston ring gap spec is 0.010-0.017 in. Measured with the ring squarely inserted into the cylinder. After you get the gap correct you install the rings on the piston. Then you use a spring compressor to install the piston into the cylinder. Hard to do without the compressor, as you found out. How did you measure the end gap? Were you removing the pistons to look at the wear on the rings?



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Pat K

06-06-2005 04:12:52




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 Re: Learned some lessons. in reply to Rob, 06-05-2005 20:37:17  
This is a new rebuild, I didn't hone the cylinders the 1st time around because the ring end gap was already .020 or above and I was afraid of making that larger. The gap on the second set was also bigger than the book says. I think I measured the rings correctly, the measurements were repeatable.

I removed the pistons so that I could hone the cylinders and get a proper break-in.

I had some other problems with parts also, I took 2 new adjustable lifters back, one was very cross-threaded, the other was so loose I couldn't see if maintaining the lash. I also had a new valve giude that wouldn't let any valve seat squarely.

I'm not going for the "worst rebuilder "award unless theres a prize. Just thought some of the things were interesting.

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Rob

06-06-2005 05:04:41




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 Re: Learned some lessons. in reply to Pat K, 06-06-2005 04:12:52  
Pat, what I was getting at is the end gap was out of spec and those rings should not have been used.
The cylinder is too big for those rings and most likely too big for the pistons. What did you measure for cylinder bore to piston? Sounds all the world like you need oversized pistons and rings. That may require boring the sleeves out to a standard size. Once that"s done, the standard oversized rings and pistons should be final sized to the cylinders.
If you use sleeves, rings and pistons that fit like worn sleeves, pistons and rings you will have an engine that works like a worn engine.

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Rob

06-06-2005 05:56:20




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 Re: Learned some lessons. in reply to Rob, 06-06-2005 05:04:41  
FYI, your earlier post. The rebuild was not right and is not right. Ring gap is measured with the ring inserted into the cylinder and I can"t imagine how they "can open up some" when installed on the piston and shoved back into the same cylinder. The 16 to 18 ring gap was not right (max 17) and the rebuild should not have gone forward from there, especially if it was actually 20 to 22. I just don"t understand what went on there but it sounds like the machine shop got it wrong. 2 or 3 piston to cylinder is not the spec. New sleeves/new pistons is 5 to 10 lbs pull with 0.002 inch feeler gage. I think you should go through the engine top to bottom checking bearings, piston pins, oil pump, all of it and confirm that the machine shop held the proper tolerances. If you do not have the proper tolerance then fix it or take it back to the machine shop so they can fix it.

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Pat K

06-06-2005 15:26:49




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 Re: Learned some lessons. in reply to Rob, 06-06-2005 05:56:20  
Hey Rob, Thanks for the input, my heart is there with you. I'd love to have gotten the right end gap first time round but it seems like the parts I got just weren't that great. I did consider the oversized rings but was told by the machine shop that the gap I had wasn't really that bad. They also didnt believe me about the crooked valve guide or the bad lifters though. I don't have a pull gauge so I went by feel, .001 was easy, .002 had nice drag, .003 was tight, although I had to mix and match pistons with cylinders to get things even. The same piston felt different in another hole. I did measure the rings prior to installation on the pistons, they were square in the bores and what I meant by "opening-up" was that after I put them on the pistons, the uninstalled gap was larger. (1/4" went to 3/8") I did plastigauge the crank and rods and they were OK, They also did the rod bushings and oil pump. The shop told me that the engine would be "ready to assemble" when the kit was purchased and their work was complete. I'm not a pro here but I don't think I made any assembly errors. Am I the only person who has encountered this? There was no brand name on most of the parts, the rings were "hastings" but the cylinders and the rest of the stuff just came in white boxes. No country of origin either. I'll do a compression test after it runs a bit more and see what it leads to. This tractor does not lead a hard life but it's been away too long this spring.

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